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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Pro AV Forum => Topic started by: Gordon Brinton on October 02, 2013, 05:29:58 AM
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When I say large, this is a locally organized music festival with moderate drawing power. I'm thinking an audience of 2,000 to 5,000. Perhaps something like 8' x 16' would do? I don't know. Like a highway billboard or something.
We need to show short videos throughout the day and real-time closeup shots of the performers would be cool too. We don't want to rent because we are planning 2 or 3 festivals each summer. Buying or building our own video screen makes more economic sense at first glance.
I have found a few solutions in America, but they are still extremely expensive. I really like the idea of the LED video curtain because some are open-air design and wind passes right through.
Does anyone know where I can gain enough knowledge to build my own? It can't be that tough. All they are is what?...Flexible addressable led strips, controller, power supply? How hard can it be?
What I want to learn is stuff such as, what voltage to use, (5 or 12,) what dot pitch I need, where to get the parts.
Am I crazy for thinking this?
Any help or discussion here would be great. Thanks.
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When I say large, this is a locally organized music festival with moderate drawing power. I'm thinking an audience of 2,000 to 5,000. Perhaps something like 8' x 16' would do? I don't know. Like a highway billboard or something.
We need to show short videos throughout the day and real-time closeup shots of the performers would be cool too. We don't want to rent because we are planning 2 or 3 festivals each summer. Buying or building our own video screen makes more economic sense at first glance.
I have found a few solutions in America, but they are still extremely expensive. I really like the idea of the LED video curtain because some are open-air design and wind passes right through.
Does anyone know where I can gain enough knowledge to build my own? It can't be that tough. All they are is what?...Flexible addressable led strips, controller, power supply? How hard can it be?
What I want to learn is stuff such as, what voltage to use, (5 or 12,) what dot pitch I need, where to get the parts.
Am I crazy for thinking this?
Any help or discussion here would be great. Thanks.
First, are you looking at just the LED display or also at the content generation and creation (cameras, graphics, production switching, etc.)? The latter could represent a significant investment in terms of capital and expertise and you would want to bring in some people with the related expertise to help plan and operate such a system.
Screen size usually relates to the distances to the furthest viewers and the content. The gerater the distance or more critici viewing is, the larger you want the displayed image to be. FWIW, in general a 9'x16' (HD format) image would typically be considered as usable from anywhere from a 54' to a 72' viewing distance depending on the content and nature of the viewing. Perhaps a bit further, 90'-108' or maybe even further, for casual viewing but maybe not as large an audience as you envision.
Dot pitch sort of follows te same issues, the image resolution will be dependent on the image size and dot pitch, the larger the image size, the lower dot pitch possible for a desired resolution or the higher the resolution desired the larger the image or smaller the dot pitch required. It might be worth noting that the open LED curtains you reference are often fine for lower resolution graphics but can require very large image areas to be able to display higher resolution images due to the larger dot pitch involved.
I would definitely consider renting the equipment and probably also the production services unless you know you will be doing a number of events for a long period.
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Firstly you need to consider what so of content you will use on the screen. If it is standard sponsor promos, camera feed and the like, a screen around the 16x9 size should be ok. Bigger is always better, but i have done crowd sizes similar to those with a screen 5m x 3m on many occasions. I would work on a resolution of P16mm for a screen that size.
I would be very cautious of trying to build something like that, as the control and content delivery would not be an easy thing to do. You can get screen made n China for around Usd1200m2 with the control system builds in. They are easy to use and I have been running some in hire stock for over 3 years with excellent results.
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One tradeoff is between screen size, pixel pitch and resolution. For a set image size a smaller pixel pitch will provide a higher resolution image while a larger pixel pitch will result in a lower resolution image. Or looked at another way, if the pixel pitch remains the same then a larger image allows for a higher resolution image. It's basically a matter of packing the pixels tighter, which allows higher resolution images in a smaller area but usually at greater cost, versus having them spaced further apart, which requires a larger image for higher resolution but usually at a lower cost.
Another consideration is the nearest, furthest and typical viewer distances. You want an image that is large enough for all to view but too large an image with too great a pixel pitch can be a problem for closer viewers. So you want to select an image size and pixel pitch that will work for all viewers.
In addition, the image resolution needs to be appropriate for the content. Static content, large text and general graphics may be handled with a larger pixel pitch and/or smaller image than motion video and smaller text or finer graphics.
As you can see, there are several related factors that have to be balanced. And that's just for the LED displays themselves and without even getting into the associated content creation, signal distribution, power, production communications and so on.
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When I say large, this is a locally organized music festival with moderate drawing power. I'm thinking an audience of 2,000 to 5,000. Perhaps something like 8' x 16' would do? I don't know. Like a highway billboard or something.
We need to show short videos throughout the day and real-time closeup shots of the performers would be cool too. We don't want to rent because we are planning 2 or 3 festivals each summer. Buying or building our own video screen makes more economic sense at first glance.
I have found a few solutions in America, but they are still extremely expensive. I really like the idea of the LED video curtain because some are open-air design and wind passes right through.
Does anyone know where I can gain enough knowledge to build my own? It can't be that tough. All they are is what?...Flexible addressable led strips, controller, power supply? How hard can it be?
What I want to learn is stuff such as, what voltage to use, (5 or 12,) what dot pitch I need, where to get the parts.
Am I crazy for thinking this?
Any help or discussion here would be great. Thanks.
When you say expensive, what is your target budget. Expensive is relative and what may be expensive to one may be normal spending for someone else. Cheap (in terms of $'s ) and LED Video Walls don't seem to be used in the same sentence.
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When you say expensive, what is your target budget. Expensive is relative and what may be expensive to one may be normal spending for someone else. Cheap (in terms of $'s ) and LED Video Walls don't seem to be used in the same sentence.
I was quoted a price of $15,000 for a one-day rental. Also, from other companies, I've been quoted $39,000 to $20,000 for purchase, (based on size and dot pitch.) I know they are not yet being mass produced, but really? I only see those prices as grossly inflated. This is 2013, the age of cheap electronics. They can't possibly cost that much to build and deliver. I think they are just capitalizing on the fact that they are net yet readily available to the public.
If I could build my own for under $10,000 US, I would surely consider it.
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I was quoted a price of $15,000 for a one-day rental. Also, from other companies, I've been quoted $39,000 to $20,000 for purchase, (based on size and dot pitch.) I know they are not yet being mass produced, but really? I only see those prices as grossly inflated. This is 2013, the age of cheap electronics. They can't possibly cost that much to build and deliver. I think they are just capitalizing on the fact that they are net yet readily available to the public.
If I could build my own for under $10,000 US, I would surely consider it.
LED panels and curtains have been around for years and are pretty widely available. Many of the 'cheap electronics' you reference are likely related to markets that involve millions of consumer units, which justifies significant investment in reducing per unit cost as well as amortizing any costs across all of those units. That situation changes dramatically where the market is significantly different and smaller. Go ahead and try building your own, you'll probably find the cost is not actually as grossly inflated as you think.
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LED panels and curtains have been around for years and are pretty widely available. Many of the 'cheap electronics' you reference are likely related to markets that involve millions of consumer units, which justifies significant investment in reducing per unit cost as well as amortizing any costs across all of those units. That situation changes dramatically where the market is significantly different and smaller. Go ahead and try building your own, you'll probably find the cost is not actually as grossly inflated as you think.
I suppose I can't build one. I don't know how the hardware needs to function. It's as if I've come to a ravine with no bridge. But thanks.
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I was quoted a price of $15,000 for a one-day rental. Also, from other companies, I've been quoted $39,000 to $20,000 for purchase, (based on size and dot pitch.) I know they are not yet being mass produced, but really? I only see those prices as grossly inflated. This is 2013, the age of cheap electronics. They can't possibly cost that much to build and deliver. I think they are just capitalizing on the fact that they are net yet readily available to the public.
If I could build my own for under $10,000 US, I would surely consider it.
If that rental price includes all required equipment and staff to run the screen, that's pretty reasonable for a 16x9 outdoor video wall.
Most 15mm panels are in the ~$2k/panel range for something around 1.5' square, so for a 16x9 screen you'd be looking at ~66 panels, or around $132,000 plus controller, cabling, rigging and operator. This still doesn't account for cameras (and camera operators), switcher, scaler, or any of the other devices required to operate video. Also doesn't include spare panels, cases or any kind of transportation costs to get the wall to/from the gig, or the overhead and maintenance that comes along with owning any kind of gear.
Note that a 16'x9' screen at a 15mm pixel pitch will only be around 352x192 pixels in size, but that doesn't mean much when it comes to how LED displays actually work.
As pixel pitch decreases (say a 10mm or 6mm panel), cost goes up significantly.
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Any help or discussion here would be great. Thanks.
Any resolution on this? Would love to know if you made a decision to rent or buy. Whichever way you choose, I could help you if you still need it. I work for neoti.com (http://neoti.com), but I won't try and sell you anything, just answer your questions from an experienced position. We could do it here publicly, or if you'd like to PM me that's fine too.
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Any resolution on this? Would love to know if you made a decision to rent or buy. Whichever way you choose, I could help you if you still need it. I work for neoti.com (http://neoti.com), but I won't try and sell you anything, just answer your questions from an experienced position. We could do it here publicly, or if you'd like to PM me that's fine too.
Thanks, Joe. I got a package-deal quote from huasun-tech for a 9' x 16' FLC-3000 (P18.25mm) for roughly $17,500 (US.) If my advanced tickets sales are strong enough, I may pull the trigger on that. Then I would own it for all subsequent festivals.
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Thanks, Joe. I got a package-deal quote from huasun-tech for a 9' x 16' FLC-3000 (P18.25mm) for roughly $17,500 (US.) If my advanced tickets sales are strong enough, I may pull the trigger on that. Then I would own it for all subsequent festivals.
Gordon,
You'll probably get a cohesive image around 40ft out with that pitch (maybe closer...this was my first first-hand operating experience)...just did a show with 2 similarly-pitched LED curtains, and they looked good at about that distance - great contrast, too. I did notice some weirdness when I quickly moved my head from side-to-side, but I was looking for issues...I don't think the "normal" attendee would notice.
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Gordon,
You'll probably get a cohesive image around 40ft out with that pitch (maybe closer...this was my first first-hand operating experience)...just did a show with 2 similarly-pitched LED curtains, and they looked good at about that distance - great contrast, too. I did notice some weirdness when I quickly moved my head from side-to-side, but I was looking for issues...I don't think the "normal" attendee would notice.
Thanks! I am still trying to get a grasp of the brightness rating. This has a rating of 3480 NITS. I hope it is enough for daytime outdoor viewing.
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Acouple things to be concerned about also:
This curtain has an IP rating of 44 yet their website says the following:
The display curtain is made from special Nano material that has the attribute of waterproof, against fire, durable, against dirty and without extension, which can be applied in outdoor and indoor.
Also it's a curtain and doesn't have blow through. You mentioned this would be used outdoors, I'm assuming on a stage of some sort. That has the potential to become a sail and cause serious issues or injuries.
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This curtain has an IP rating of 44 yet their website says the following:
The display curtain is made from special Nano material that has the attribute of waterproof, against fire, durable, against dirty and without extension, which can be applied in outdoor and indoor.
The Chinese may not be that good with the English language. Maybe they mean it is water "resistant".
Also it's a curtain and doesn't have blow through. You mentioned this would be used outdoors, I'm assuming on a stage of some sort. That has the potential to become a sail and cause serious issues or injuries.
What if I strapped it to the side of a box truck and parked it beside the stage?
I don't know. I haven't bought anything yet. Can you suggest a better company/deal?
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I would suggest a Daktronics Product. It is American made and is quite reliable. I am biased though as I am employed by Daktronics.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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And I would not suggest a daktronics product because we have one and have had nothing but problems. Support has been good, and perhaps my experience is unique, but I find their engineering leaves a lot to be desired.
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I have used the Theatrix ST18 many times with great results. Yes the pixel spacing is pretty high and I wish that I could use a 6 or 8mm wall, but at the price I'm getting the 19mm it's hard to pass up.
http://www.theatrixx.com/en/product/ST-18P/