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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Peter Kowalczyk on March 27, 2024, 08:36:15 PM
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I'm exploring getting an analog splitter for FOH / Monitor consoles. I'm deep in the M32 ecosystem, and have commonly used two desks sharing the same DL32, and while it works well enough, the routing complexity and gain sharing aren't ideal.
I'm seeing some cheap-looking 'seismic audio' options (common in traveling IEM rigs I see), and badass-but-spendy-looking whirlwind products, but not much in between. Anyone know of something in the middle?
What's the prevailing wisdom on isolation transformers these days? Necessary, or no longer so? The seismic ones clearly don't have them...
My typical situation would be 32 channels; one trunk direct to the monitor desk's local IO, and another to the FOH stage box.
Thanks!
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I'm exploring getting an analog splitter for FOH / Monitor consoles. I'm deep in the M32 ecosystem, and have commonly used two desks sharing the same DL32, and while it works well enough, the routing complexity and gain sharing aren't ideal.
I'm seeing some cheap-looking 'seismic audio' options (common in traveling IEM rigs I see), and badass-but-spendy-looking whirlwind products, but not much in between. Anyone know of something in the middle?
What's the prevailing wisdom on isolation transformers these days? Necessary, or no longer so? The seismic ones clearly don't have them...
My typical situation would be 32 channels; one trunk direct to the monitor desk's local IO, and another to the FOH stage box.
Thanks!
We have passive (hardwired) splitters and transformer isolated splitters, all Whirlwind. If you are only ever planning to use it for splitting between a monitor console and an FOH stagebox, presumably plugged into the same power source, you do not need transformers. We have never run into problems with the passive units, no matter the situation. Some of our colleagues only stock passive ramlatch units, and they do larger events than we do.
My experience with anything seismic is that it's worth it to spend a little more money (and I do mean a little) at Audiopile. Seismic cabling feels like wet spaghetti, it is not confidence inspiring. We have a fair amount of Audiopile's cable offerings from singular XLR, to stage subsnakes, patch snakes, etc... and they are a great value. If you are looking for a hardwired splitter and don't have the budget for whirlwind or ramlatch or CBI or radial, (et al) I am of the opinion that there is no need to look anywhere else.
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I have 2 of the seismic 32ch splitters. One has 2 bad channels, and one works great since I fixed 3 bad channels.
In short - for occasional use they’re ok. If you’re good at re soldering connections they’re ok.
and / or - buy a bigger unit than you need so when channels go down, you can work around it.
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My typical situation would be 32 channels; one trunk direct to the monitor desk's local IO, and another to the FOH stage box.
What form factor? The Whirlwind SB24P(1G) is a "stage box" that you plug your fan to fan snakes into. The only drawback is that it's only 24ch in rather than 32ch. The non-1G version is priced well, and not much more than the equivalent number of channels from EWI.
If you want permanently rack mounted, the Whirlwind SPC82 works well, but costs more. The ProCo MS82 is basically the same, at a slightly higher cost.
Radial splitters are similar, with option of Jensen transformers (not needed), at an even higher price.
EWI is priced a little lower than the above, if you have 8RU to spare.
I'm sure there are more. Naturally having fans, or especially multipin, will push the cost up a lot.
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CBI "Ear Splitter" is what I've sold the most of. They will do whatever level of customization you want.
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I have a seismic 32ch that I've used a handful of times with no issue. Their stuff gets a bad rap, but for something that gets taken care of, it works fine. I wouldn't use their cables on stage, but the split doesn't get abused.
I would be willing to sell mine, as I'd much rather have 2 16 channel units since it would fit my needs better.
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We have passive (hardwired) splitters and transformer isolated splitters, all Whirlwind.
At the risk of being called ultra pedantic, hardwired and transformer isolated splitters are both "passive" ;-)
I got called out on the terminology some years back...!
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I have a seismic 32ch that I've used a handful of times with no issue. Their stuff gets a bad rap, but for something that gets taken care of, it works fine. I wouldn't use their cables on stage, but the split doesn't get abused.
I agree.
The biggest issue I've seen with *some* Seismic snakes are faux-neutrik male XLR connectors that have slightly larger than standard outside diameters and can get stuck. I rather like the flexibility of their cables and, as noted, provided they're pampered, they'll do the job.
Dave
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Much respect to Whirlwind, but we've got stuff on back order since.... Nov 2022. I'd not buy unless they are willing to give a 200% guarantee on delivery date. Seriously.
I've specified and used active (BSS) splitters, transformer splitters, and "wye" splitters. They all do the job. "Back in the day" when the Pin 1 problem was frequent and AC power distribution in audio systems (and in venues) was a kind of cowboy exercise, transformers were a requirement of any big or serious system. If the rig never connected to anything with different AC service (like, oh, video or a tie line to the LX operator's powered speaker) a wye splitter was often sufficient and you might be surprised at how many "companies you've heard of" used and still use them.
That said... Seismic is not a brand I'd buy or recommend, for all the reasons previously stated.
"Gain sharing" in the X/M32 is awkward at best and is absolutely not acceptable by the artist crew unless they set it up (and usually, bring it with them).
Call your Rapco/ProCo dealer and have them get a quote on a custom wye splitter.
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"If" you have the soldering skills adding a 12 ft piece of 32 pair cable to an existing snake stage box is the lowest up front cost way of making this work. The cost / benefit decision of course has more to do with how busy you are & how much you're charging for your time. If you were to do this mod to a well made Whirlwind or Rapco snake you'd certainly have a better quality snake than the Seismic.
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These days, for common usage, the isn't a compelling reason to have an isolated split. I do run across the Seismic splitters fairly often and many times there is a bad channel or two. These are band owned splits and don't see much maintenance. I think they can be okay is they are handled with care and see maintenance as needed. I would probably switch out the connectors for better quality as the need repair. My first spilt was a 10 ft long, 16 channel snake cable, males on one end and a pair of wyed females on the other. It served me well for many years and as far as I know a friend is still using it.
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At the risk of being called ultra pedantic, hardwired and transformer isolated splitters are both "passive" ;-)
I got called out on the terminology some years back...!
Fair enough. I've always referred to the "Y" splits as passive for some reason, though I've never thought of or referred to a transformer split as "active", so I guess it's a meaningless descriptor in that context.
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Fair enough. I've always referred to the "Y" splits as passive for some reason, though I've never thought of or referred to a transformer split as "active", so I guess it's a meaningless descriptor in that context.
..except that it's not meaningless: as Tim mentioned, active splits (i.e. audio splitters that involve an amplifier stage) are absolutely a thing, but the use-case for them is vanishingly small (although not nonexistent; for example, they're exactly the sort of "reliability through frivolity" that broadcast loves to throw its money at).
-Russ
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CBI "Ear Splitter" is what I've sold the most of. They will do whatever level of customization you want.
+1 for CBI. Well made, cost effective and you can spec it however you want.
We've got a couple of 48 channel CBI splitters both with LK150 connectors on the ferniest. Both are "wye" splitters without transformers. One has ground lifts but I've never needed/used them in 8 years, so I wouldn't bother. Most recently I purchased a 32 channel hard-wired (no multi-pin disconnects) CBI splitter with 10 and 25 foot tails. Compact and lightweight.
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I agree.
The biggest issue I've seen with *some* Seismic snakes are faux-neutrik male XLR connectors that have slightly larger than standard outside diameters and can get stuck. I rather like the flexibility of their cables and, as noted, provided they're pampered, they'll do the job.
Dave
Can confirm, dealt with this just last night.
A minor issue until you are unpatching the openers tails in a hurry, in a cramped backstage, in the dark...
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Thanks All.
I'll look into EWI (Audiopile), CBI, and Rapco. My Rapco guy indicated that they don't have standard split snakes as a product...
My preferred form factor would be a Rackmount with relatively short tails. But EWI's box style ones could work fine too.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions about Sesimic.
And sounds like a straight 'Wye' splitter is adequate for most uses.
Rock on!
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Thanks All.
I'll look into EWI (Audiopile), CBI, and Rapco. My Rapco guy indicated that they don't have standard split snakes as a product...
My preferred form factor would be a Rackmount with relatively short tails. But EWI's box style ones could work fine too.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions about Sesimic.
And sounds like a straight 'Wye' splitter is adequate for most uses.
Rock on!
I was running 48 channels of EWI splitters for about 10 years with no issues. I still keep them around for occasional interface if needed. Never had an issue, did multiple 2 and 3 ways splits not just on stage, but also for broadcast trucks with no complaints.
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In my experience, i went active for one show.
4 way split. Front of House, Monitors, Broadcast truck (CBC), and Recording truck.
Interesting guy, the CBC fellow. After seeing he was on an active split, he un-soldered each pin one.
After the show, he restored everything. I'm pretty good with a soldering station, but this guy was something else.
I've never had a problem with passive splits to my Yamaha boards, on the same leg of the Distro.
When i built my splitter, i put in 4 x-fmrs for "Money Channels", just because.
Chris.
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I use the Earsplitter, with ground lifts and transformers. Do I need transformers? Who knows, but if I didn’t have them, what’s my backup plan? Carry a second one with transformers? In a rack with the tails it’s not particularly heavy. No regrets, used all the time to split signals between a mixer system I have complete control over, and whatever shows up from the artists. Unless you’re on a super tight budget, just go with the transformers. The CBI unit is well built and was quite a bit less expensive than Whirlwind offerings while not being a throw-away like the SA stuff. SA might work for some, but I’ve read about 600 too many bad stories about them to risk my reputation over a couple hundred dollars of savings.
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I have a 48 channel trafo system based on 12 channel modules from Link. XLR/LK37 input, 3x LK37 + 1x XLR output and input patching.
These are handy for splitting for guest consoles.
One of my stage racks have a simple Y-split built-in, I deploy the split solution most suited for the gig.
IF it's a simple 1:1 split I can do that in the rack, but if I need custom patching on inputs I use the trafo based system.
Attached is a picture of a pair of racks.
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In my experience, i went active for one show.
4 way split. Front of House, Monitors, Broadcast truck (CBC), and Recording truck.
Interesting guy, the CBC fellow. After seeing he was on an active split, he un-soldered each pin one.
After the show, he restored everything. I'm pretty good with a soldering station, but this guy was something else.
I snipped all the pin 1 in the output loom on mine years ago and haven't had a situation since where their lack was an issue.
-I do have other multipoint looms with pin1 intact so it's an easy swap if they turned out to be needed.
Years ago I did have 24 separate 1' long ground-lift adaptor cables to deploy if needed -could nothing like that be found or did the guy just really want to show off his skills?
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I snipped all the pin 1 in the output loom on mine years ago and haven't had a situation since where their lack was an issue.
-I do have other multipoint looms with pin1 intact so it's an easy swap if they turned out to be needed.
Years ago I did have 24 separate 1' long ground-lift adaptor cables to deploy if needed -could nothing like that be found or did the guy just really want to show off his skills?
Craig, he didn't snip anything. He used wick to unsoldered them. Slip on a bit of tubing for insulation, and put the shell back on. No hi-jinks needed to solder them back. He was FAST, and accurate. Maybe it was my first rodeo, but it sure wasn't his.
Personally, my split has ground lifts, but I've never had the need to use them.
Chris.
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Just about anything is better than a Seismic!!
I built a 32 channel split some years ago complete with ground lifts and and think maybe once I actually need to lift a couple channels.
Just built a compact 20 channel split, no ground lifts, had CBI do the metal work and I soldered it up.
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I snipped all the pin 1 in the output loom on mine years ago and haven't had a situation since where their lack was an issue.
-I do have other multipoint looms with pin1 intact so it's an easy swap if they turned out to be needed.
Years ago I did have 24 separate 1' long ground-lift adaptor cables to deploy if needed -could nothing like that be found or did the guy just really want to show off his skills?
On my former long time gig, we had a xfmr split in the control package. We got an incredible deal on it from an inventory sell off when we were looking for a mic split.
Pin 1 only connectted to the direct side of the split. on all the iso outputs, pin 1 was tied to the shield of that transformer winding. Each isolated destination was providing the ground for the pin 1 shields on their split.
Only mods we did were to bypass the ground lift switches (they were originally on the direct side, left the switches there as pacifiers) and add the Jensen recommended termination resistor/rfi bypass cap to channel 1.
This was bulletproof on any remote broadcast/recording setup, no matter where the remote was sourcing power from (and we did a lot of TV/radio/corporate broadcast type gigs in all kinds of settings) I believe this had a lot to do with the telescoping ground arrangement.
Nowadays with mostly digital stage boxes a few feet from each other, a passive wye is usually more than sufficient.
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I have a 48 channel trafo system based on 12 channel modules from Link. XLR/LK37 input, 3x LK37 + 1x XLR output and input patching.
These are handy for splitting for guest consoles.
One of my stage racks have a simple Y-split built-in, I deploy the split solution most suited for the gig.
IF it's a simple 1:1 split I can do that in the rack, but if I need custom patching on inputs I use the trafo based system.
Attached is a picture of a pair of racks.
"Trafo"? Is that a euro thing? No comprende amigo... :-)
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"Only mods we did were to bypass the ground lift switches (they were originally on the direct side, left the switches there as pacifiers)
" Yep, definitely sounds better with the switch in this position... " :D
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"Trafo"? Is that a euro thing? No comprende amigo... :-)
My bad, Trafo is Norwegian short form writing for Transformer :)
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I have a Klark Teknik DN1248 plus that I am about to give away to a fellow that likes to tinker. It was pulled out of an install when it failed. I am pretty sure it is a power supply issue. It is the model with only one power supply. This is an active splitter. It even has preamps and phantom in it. It was a great unit but I don’t know anyone that would need one of these now a days.
Years ago I built a snake and I added a Multi-pin connector in it for a hard wired split. I never finished the splitter tails because I never really had a use for it. It (the snake cable) was used for a portable church and I thought that would be a nice feature to have, but then realized it wasn’t needed so I didn’t finish it. I had the multi pin connectors already so it didn’t cost anything but my time. I still have that split fan out in my basement.
I love it when we are working with a band that has their own IEMs and mixer for it with a hardwired split off of it. I have never had a problem with them.
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I've been using Seismic drop snakes with a bar band for the last 6 months. So far I'd say they are cheap but good - no issues, other than the fanouts being a bit short. I would not hesitate to use one of their splitters in a weekend warrior scenario.
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Check out Elite Core Perseus. They make some custom that look good.
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I've been using Seismic drop snakes with a bar band for the last 6 months. So far I'd say they are cheap but good - no issues, other than the fanouts being a bit short. I would not hesitate to use one of their splitters in a weekend warrior scenario.
Your brave!!
Any Seismic snake I've seen has a dead channel or three and at least the male XLR connectors always have that feel that they are about to get stuck in a legit XLR connector. I will never directly plug a Seismic male connector directly into a snake box or stage box of mine, I have a short fan to fan snake that works perfect as a "buffer", just used it about a month ago for that very purpose.
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I've been using Seismic drop snakes with a bar band for the last 6 months. So far I'd say they are cheap but good - no issues
I have a 16 ch Seismic split that's been OK. I also have an 8 channel drop snake. The jacks in the box were intermittent, so I replaced them all with Switchcraft. Then 2 of the channels went bad *at random points in the cable*, with no abuse or sign of physical damage. Never seen that before.