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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Gene Ragonese on May 23, 2016, 09:03:11 AM
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Hello all,
I am currently working on an existing sound system that has been having some issues and i havent really been able to fix pretty much any of them. I generally work on home audio but this soundsystem is at one of the local bars and is giving me quite the hassle. I have made diagrams to better show what i am working with.
The are having their input come from an ipad using the 3.5mm audio jack. It splits the left and right channel which then goes into input 1 & 2 of a Rane SM 26B mixer. The signal that comes out of the 1/4" left and right of the Rane Mixer merges into 2 xlr cables. the left from the output going to the left pin of the xlr and right to right pin. The xlr cables then go into the channel 1 & 2 of a Rane DC 24 compressor. The channel 1 signal from the DC24 then comes out and spilts to two Crest Audio FA800 amps. One of the amps handling the left channel lows and the other the rights. The second channel of the DC 24 comes out and splits to the left and right channel of the tweeters.
On the connectivity block they are connected in series parrallel, with the positive of the amp connected at speakers 1 & 9 for the highs, 1&9 for the lows, and the negative of the amp of 18&20 for the highs and lows. The tweeters they are using are pyramid tw44 and woofers are goldwood gw-8pc/8.
After rewiring and firing up the amps. It was a disaster. Some speakers worked. others didnt. All and all it just sounded horrible. Some of their speakers are blown or having issues but i dont know where to begin to fix these issues in a timely manner. Would a blown speaker connected in series like i have them effect the rest of the ones on the series? Any help and expertise anyone could lend would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks Much
Gene
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Rules won't allow an answer until your name is changed to follow forum rules.
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Rules won't allow an answer until your name is changed to follow forum rules.
My apologies on that issue.
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My apologies on that issue.
Why did you rewire? How was it wired before you changed it?
Your description of the wiring from the mixer through the compressor and then to the amps is confusing.
How is the signal connected to multiple amplifier channels? In the HF is is two while the LF is four.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Are you sure of the model of the device between the mixer and the amps?
It doesn't make sense to have a compressor there. It should be a crossover.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Why did you rewire? How was it wired before you changed it?
Your description of the wiring from the mixer through the compressor and then to the amps is confusing.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I rewired it due to some speakers being disconnected on that block due to not working/blown. There was no way to tell what speaker went to each location so I traced the wires from each speaker back to the speaker block. It was wired in a series parallel manner before. But not knowing what went where I figured it would be better to start fresh.
The whole setup for the input through the mixer to the gate and then amps is confusing me as well. I'm beginning to think eliminating the compressor, and getting a different mixer may cut out a great amount of issues. If you could ask more direct of what you're looking to know with the connectivity I could explain it better. It makes sense in my mind but I know my terminology and explanation isn't always the best.
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Are you sure of the model of the device between the mixer and the amps?
It doesn't make sense to have a compressor there. It should be a crossover.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
It is the Rane DC24. It does have a crossover but into it.
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To answer your question in the OP, yes a blown speaker in series run will kill all speakers in that run.
Amp-S1-S2-S3 S4-Amp
In the signal chain above (speaker 1,2,3, & 4), S3 being blow or if the connection between S3 & S4 is cut, yields the same results. No return to the amp, now sound.
I don't follow the drawing either.
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To answer your question in the OP, yes a blown speaker in series run will kill all speakers in that run.
Amp-S1-S2-S3 S4-Amp
In the signal chain above (speaker 1,2,3, & 4), S3 being blow or if the connection between S3 & S4 is cut, yields the same results. No return to the amp, now sound.
I don't follow the drawing either.
I will edit that one to be more deceptive when I get back to the office.
What would be the best way to figure out what speakers need replacing? Diconnecting them and measuring resistance there at the speaker block or removing each speaker and measuring at the terminals?
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I will edit that one to be more deceptive when I get back to the office.
What would be the best way to figure out what speakers need replacing? Diconnecting them and measuring resistance there at the speaker block or removing each speaker and measuring at the terminals?
If I read your speaker block correctly, + on 1 and - on 4 can be measured as a group. However the jumper from +1 to +5 must be removed (+1 must be free) or the jumper from -4 must be removed. One or the other.
If the circuit has continuity, all in that group are good. Move on to the next group. If the circuit is open, then all speakers in that group must be measured alone.
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here is a little more detailed explanation of the speaker block. The amp for the low left is connected bridged onto the speaker blocks low left in the same way as the highs. Same goes for the right low.
The key on the bottom hopefully better explains how each block of speakers is connected.
(http://i.imgur.com/AETlneQ.jpg)
hopefully this clears up the connections of the equipment. If it would be better to eliminate that DC24 compressor that is fine.
(http://i.imgur.com/wqwxpPg.jpg)
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At least one of the problems is that according to the Rane manual, nothing should be connected to the Chan 2 input of the DC24(it is not a stereo crossover unit). The left slide switch should be in the "separate" position, and the "crossover engage" switch should be depressed. http://www.rane.com/pdf/old/dc24man.pdf
Since your crossover output is mono, I would also pan the chan 1 and 2 mixer Ipod inputs to Left Main, and use a standard 1/4" TRS cable to connect the Left Main Output of the mixer to the Chan 1 input of the crossover.
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That cabling looks pretty bizarre. You seem to have some sort of custom splitter/combiner thing linking the left and right 1/4" outputs of the mixer and feeding them into Ch 1 and Ch 2 of the compressor/xover.
"Y combiners" are bad practice, as they cause two low impedance outputs to be connected in parallel with a high impedance input, resulting in the outputs loading each other down and producing distortion.
I don't know the DC24, but having just seen a photo of the unit, it looks like you shouldn't connect anything to the Ch 2 input if you are using it as a crossover.
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Scott got it on the connections to the Rane DC24.
I take it you didn't document the speaker blocks before rewiring them?
The way you have it will not send equal signal level to all speakers.
Each chain in parallel should have the same number of speakers in it.
You can, with the amplifier disconnect from the speaker block, and the parallel jumpers removed, simply measure the resistance of each speaker to see if all are well. You should get a reading more than a few ohms but less than, say 20( to pick a random number higher than I would expect).
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Add to that the fact that the crossover's balanced input will attempt to reject signals in the common mode and you will probably end up hearing mostly the "S" component of your stereo music source (the difference between L and R). As Scott says, the first thing is to ditch that cable and just connect a straight 1/4" TRS between mixer and crossover.
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Thank you all for all the help so far!!! I have definitely bit off more than i know how to chew with this and would just like to get it up and working so i cant quit feeling like a fool. Im almost to the point of wearing a dunce cap while doing anything on this system. I will start measuring each speaker tonight and see what the Ohm reading is as Rob had said. That way hopefully i can eliminate blown speakers from the list of needing to be fixed. From what i have taken from everyones input with the equipment it should connect as shown below.
(http://i.imgur.com/sj9cYL7.jpg)
Using a 3.5mm to 1/4" from the ipad to input 1. A 1/4" to XLR from the left out of the mixer to channel 1 of the compressor in. And then an XLR from Channel 1 out to the amps.
Am i on the right track or still clueless?
also what is the best way to split the signal from the compressor out to the 3 amps?
Here is a layout of the speakers. Any better way to have them connected on the speaker block than how i have laid them out?
(http://i.imgur.com/ZYrfbn6.jpg)
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No, leave the ipod connected as it is. Just pan both channels hard left on the mixer so the left and right channels are summed and sent to the L output.
Connect the mixer L output to Ch 1 input on the crossover.
On crossover, connect Ch 1/Low Out to low amplifier. Connect Ch 2 High/Combine Out to high amplifier.
Engage the crossover (switch on back of unit).
Set separate/combine switch to SEPARATE.
On front panel dial in crossover/comp/limiter settings appropriate to your setup. Ensure Ch 1 bypass is not switched in, as this will defeat the crossover.
Have a look at the manual, it explains it all pretty well http://www.rane.com/pdf/old/dc24man.pdf
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After you follow the directions to get the crossover hooked up correctly, slowly back out the door and run like hell. Don't look back!
Having that many speakers wired in series/parallel is a disaster looking for a place to happen. It was ill conceived from the start, and repairs are not going to make it better. Distance yourself from this before it erupts.
Mac
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No, leave the ipod connected as it is. Just pan both channels hard left on the mixer so the left and right channels are summed and sent to the L output.
Connect the mixer L output to Ch 1 input on the crossover.
On crossover, connect Ch 1/Low Out to low amplifier. Connect Ch 2 High/Combine Out to high amplifier.
Engage the crossover (switch on back of unit).
Set separate/combine switch to SEPARATE.
On front panel dial in crossover/comp/limiter settings appropriate to your setup. Ensure Ch 1 bypass is not switched in, as this will defeat the crossover.
Have a look at the manual, it explains it all pretty well http://www.rane.com/pdf/old/dc24man.pdf
Thanks for explaining that! I was under the impression that something needed to go in on the channel 2 input to get anything to come out.
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After you follow the directions to get the crossover hooked up correctly, slowly back out the door and run like hell. Don't look back!
Having that many speakers wired in series/parallel is a disaster looking for a place to happen. It was ill conceived from the start, and repairs are not going to make it better. Distance yourself from this before it erupts.
Mac
So I should look into a new phone number once I'm done too?
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So I should look into a new phone number once I'm done too?
You touch it you own it. Applies to anything normal people don't understand.
Unless wheelbarrows of cash were involved you are fucked for life.
No good deed goes unpunished.
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Do all speaker wires come to the speaker block, or are any speakers linked directly to other speakers (in the install / mounting zones)?
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Have you considered not bi-amping? The tweeter has a x-over cap (assuming that it is still there).
Parallel a woofer to a tweeter as a test. How does it sound (eliminate the DC24)?
If it sounds good (OK), that will open up a lot of possibilities with the 3 amps.
The woofer is spec'd as 8 ohms.
The tweeter is spec'd as 4~8 ohms. Can someone decipher that spec? Does it have to do with the cap in place vs removed? Or something else?
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Hello all,
I am currently working on an existing sound system that has been having some issues and i havent really been able to fix pretty much any of them. I generally work on home audio but this soundsystem is at one of the local bars and is giving me quite the hassle. I have made diagrams to better show what i am working with.
The are having their input come from an ipad using the 3.5mm audio jack. It splits the left and right channel which then goes into input 1 & 2 of a Rane SM 26B mixer. The signal that comes out of the 1/4" left and right of the Rane Mixer merges into 2 xlr cables. the left from the output going to the left pin of the xlr and right to right pin. The xlr cables then go into the channel 1 & 2 of a Rane DC 24 compressor. The channel 1 signal from the DC24 then comes out and spilts to two Crest Audio FA800 amps. One of the amps handling the left channel lows and the other the rights. The second channel of the DC 24 comes out and splits to the left and right channel of the tweeters.
On the connectivity block they are connected in series parrallel, with the positive of the amp connected at speakers 1 & 9 for the highs, 1&9 for the lows, and the negative of the amp of 18&20 for the highs and lows. The tweeters they are using are pyramid tw44 and woofers are goldwood gw-8pc/8.
After rewiring and firing up the amps. It was a disaster. Some speakers worked. others didnt. All and all it just sounded horrible. Some of their speakers are blown or having issues but i dont know where to begin to fix these issues in a timely manner. Would a blown speaker connected in series like i have them effect the rest of the ones on the series? Any help and expertise anyone could lend would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks Much
Gene
17,18,19&20 are probably loud and all the rest sound like they're barely working I'd bet
All of your crossover/compressor issues aside, your series/parallel config isn't going to work well unless you ditch a speaker and make it 3 strings of 3 speakers each
If all speakers are 8ohms then the 17+18 string will be 16ohms and the other two strings will be 32ohms
Let's say your amp is capable of 50V output, then the 17+18 string is drawing 156W and the others are drawing only 78W each. not a super huge deal until you notice that the 156W is divided between two speakers (so 78W per speaker for #17&18) but the 78W on the other string is divided by 4, so every other speaker gets 19.5W
Also, since it sounds like the speakers are all wired back to one point where you're able to reconfigure them then that means that the total wire length for the longer strings is, well, longer!
I still think Mac's advice should be at the top of your list. But I thought you might be interested to know what's going on
Jason
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After you follow the directions to get the crossover hooked up correctly, slowly back out the door and run like hell. Don't look back!
Having that many speakers wired in series/parallel is a disaster looking for a place to happen. It was ill conceived from the start, and repairs are not going to make it better. Distance yourself from this before it erupts.
Mac
^^ This is the best advice in the entire thread.
Series/parallel wiring conventions are sometimes acceptable if you're trying to hook up something like four 4-ohm speakers to a 4-ohm amp. Once you start to get beyond that you'd better know EXACTLY what you're doing and be prepared to service that system for the rest of it's useful life, because no one else will want to spend the time to figure it out.
You're really not doing the owner any favors by adding more tape to this band-aid. Rip it off and stitch the wound up with some 70v speakers.
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Do all speaker wires come to the speaker block, or are any speakers linked directly to other speakers (in the install / mounting zones)?
All the speakers come back to the block. Each speaker with its own wire for the tweeter and one for the woofer.
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17,18,19&20 are probably loud and all the rest sound like they're barely working I'd bet
All of your crossover/compressor issues aside, your series/parallel config isn't going to work well unless you ditch a speaker and make it 3 strings of 3 speakers each
If all speakers are 8ohms then the 17+18 string will be 16ohms and the other two strings will be 32ohms
Let's say your amp is capable of 50V output, then the 17+18 string is drawing 156W and the others are drawing only 78W each. not a super huge deal until you notice that the 156W is divided between two speakers (so 78W per speaker for #17&18) but the 78W on the other string is divided by 4, so every other speaker gets 19.5W
Also, since it sounds like the speakers are all wired back to one point where you're able to reconfigure them then that means that the total wire length for the longer strings is, well, longer!
I still think Mac's advice should be at the top of your list. But I thought you might be interested to know what's going on
Jason
Jason,
if you have a better configuration of that speaker block by dropping a speaker, i am all ears. I dont think one missing will effect much.
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^^ This is the best advice in the entire thread.
Series/parallel wiring conventions are sometimes acceptable if you're trying to hook up something like four 4-ohm speakers to a 4-ohm amp. Once you start to get beyond that you'd better know EXACTLY what you're doing and be prepared to service that system for the rest of it's useful life, because no one else will want to spend the time to figure it out.
You're really not doing the owner any favors by adding more tape to this band-aid. Rip it off and stitch the wound up with some 70v speakers.
Im begining to think that moving might be a good solution as well. im begining to see this "favor" is turning out to eat up alot of my personal time. Id just like to get the system to the point of functional and stable. If yout have some suggestions on what it would take to do that id happily listen. I wont even try to pretend im anywhere in the same league of knowledge that everyone here has.
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How are the woofers and tweeters mounted? Side by side, stacked, spaced, etc.
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David,
If I'm on the same page as you than they are spaced.
if you look at the speaker lay out in the bar a couple posts back, each number is a speaker box with a woofer and tweeter in it. Each box location has a 2 wires ran back to the speaker block. One for the woofer and one for the tweeter
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A great disservice was rendered to this establishment. As unprofessional as it would be, a better system would have been a coax speaker like these LINK (http://www.parts-express.com/cat/pro-coaxial-full-range-speakers/32?N=22165+4294967118&Ne=10166&No=0&Nrpp=16&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&PortalID=1) . Even the cheap ones.
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David,
If I'm on the same page as you than they are spaced.
if you look at the speaker lay out in the bar a couple posts back, each number is a speaker box with a woofer and tweeter in it. Each box location has a 2 wires ran back to the speaker block. One for the woofer and one for the tweeter
Your definition would be my side by side. By spaced I meant if the woofers are 6 ft apart, are the tweeter in the middle?
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If yout have some suggestions on what it would take to do that id happily listen.
I tried, I really did, but I just can't. I even had my calculator in hand and was going to try to figure out a way to get the loads to around 4-8ohms. But it would just perpetuate this type of shoddy work. I got frustrated just thinking about it, and had to wait a couple hours just to type this response.
The only advice I have for a situation like this is to remove all of these cobbled together components and replace it with something designed for a commercial install. You can buy 70v ceiling speakers from JBL for something like $40 each, and an amp to run them for a few hundred, depending on how much power you need. Remember, this system wasn't working properly before, that's why you got involved. So don't feel responsible if you can't get it right. The guy who 'designed' it couldn't get it right either. Print this thread and show it to the owner if you need to.
Now, if you post the dimensions of the space, what it's intended use is, and what type of volume you need to achieve, we can help you.
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Jason,
if you have a better configuration of that speaker block by dropping a speaker, i am all ears. I dont think one missing will effect much.
If you drop one and rearrange the rest to be three strings of three speakers each then they will all (assuming they're all still healthy) receive the same amount of power
And the amplifier will see a load equivalent to having only one speaker connected
However, it's still a terrible way to do things and I would only bother if you've got everything else worked out and the remaining symptoms are what I described previously
Jason
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My head hurts...
Did they give the original "installer" free drinks for as long as he was working on that atrocity?
-Hal
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My head hurts...
Did they give the original "installer" free drinks for as long as he was working on that atrocity?
-Hal
I see why I'm getting free drinks. Now if they ask me to check something out in the basement I'll guarantee there is a trap there
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Now, if you post the dimensions of the space, what it's intended use is, and what type of volume you need to achieve, we can help you.
Id say a rough estimate without a tape measure would be 30' wide, 250' deep, and 18' ceilings. They just want something to play music through that sounds good. Which I think a boombox may cover those needs right now.
It's not something that needs to be overly loud either.
What would your suggestions be in putting something else in there?
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If you drop one and rearrange the rest to be three strings of three speakers each then they will all (assuming they're all still healthy) receive the same amount of power
And the amplifier will see a load equivalent to having only one speaker connected
However, it's still a terrible way to do things and I would only bother if you've got everything else worked out and the remaining symptoms are what I described previously
Jason
I am going to try the way you suggested once I eliminate the blown speakers. If it still isn't giving a good result I'm going to oust everything and tell them they need to pony up and buy the right equipment