ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Matthew Graves (Jr) on December 18, 2014, 01:31:40 PM

Title: Guest engineer
Post by: Matthew Graves (Jr) on December 18, 2014, 01:31:40 PM
I am starting a tour with a client next year and would like the S.O.P or the right way to handle an installed house system.
I have always been under the impression that if I am to bring in my FOH that all inputs are ran into my FOH and I give the house engineer a stereo feed from my L&R's, therefore utilizing the house eq that the engineer has set, the compressor and any other processing the house engineer has in place before amps and stacks. It's a respect thing and also the house engineer should know the room better then say the guest engineer and why would you want to change the house guys settings? That doesn't seem right to me.
Is there a standard to this or maybe a Full Sail protocol on this topic?
I hope I am being specific enough.
Thanks in advance \m/ \m/
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Ted Christensen on December 18, 2014, 01:52:14 PM
I am starting a tour with a client next year and would like the S.O.P or the right way to handle an installed house system.
I have always been under the impression that if I am to bring in my FOH that all inputs are ran into my FOH and I give the house engineer a stereo feed from my L&R's, therefore utilizing the house eq that the engineer has set, the compressor and any other processing the house engineer has in place before amps and stacks. It's a respect thing and also the house engineer should know the room better then say the guest engineer and why would you want to change the house guys settings? That doesn't seem right to me.
Is there a standard to this or maybe a Full Sail protocol on this topic?
I hope I am being specific enough.
Thanks in advance \m/ \m/

If you are the guy one tour here is what i can tell you from working with BE's myself. Don't be a dick, have your stuff together. advance your info to the house guy when possible. There really is no "s.o.p" unless you wanna include what i just said.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Matthew Graves (Jr) on December 18, 2014, 05:04:44 PM
If you are the guy one tour here is what i can tell you from working with BE's myself. Don't be a dick, have your stuff together. advance your info to the house guy when possible. There really is no "s.o.p" unless you wanna include what i just said.

Never a dick!, ever!! I do know it's polite to zero out the console once you're done with it but does that go for eq's too?
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 18, 2014, 06:34:48 PM
Never a dick!, ever!! I do know it's polite to zero out the console once you're done with it but does that go for eq's too?

In general if you change it, put it back.  If I'm really wanting to change the house's EQ I'll ask that it be bypassed (just push the button) and I'll use my own.

I operate house systems as "the house guy" at our local PAC.  In our halls we'd expect you to bring your own snake if you're bringing a console (we have sound booths) although for a limited number of inputs we could probably provide enough snaking.

As the Band Guy, I want to hand the House Person left, right, subs (if separate) and front fill/under balcony/etc in whatever manner they need it.  Many times the fills are processed from an internal split of L/R, same with subs; sometimes you can get into all the subsystems with individual inputs.  What I do depends on how the house rig sounds and how much time we have to make it play nicer if I don't like it at first audition.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Kyle Van Sandt on December 18, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
I'll ignore the "Full Sail" thing... saying that they are setting any standards is pretty much a joke. 

But... as Tim has said assume L/R/S/FF.  Also, assume that they will have processing in place that makes the room "flat" and is properly time aligned.  Your best bet is to have a processor of your own in your rack to deal with any issues in the space.  That will also give you some additional outputs if needed if their rig is broken up weird.  In your default settings in your console use matrices to feed each zone then send your outputs to those matrices... that will help you considerably if you hit a house with a weird system or a center cluster. 

Also, be aware that if you are playing a smaller club that is not used to road desks be prepared to hit issues.  You might have to supply house music, an announce mic, or house PSA's.  Be sure to spell this out in the advance.  Also, be sure that your rider mentions how big of an FOH footprint you need. 
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Matthew Graves (Jr) on December 23, 2014, 07:56:20 PM
In general if you change it, put it back.  If I'm really wanting to change the house's EQ I'll ask that it be bypassed (just push the button) and I'll use my own.

I operate house systems as "the house guy" at our local PAC.  In our halls we'd expect you to bring your own snake if you're bringing a console (we have sound booths) although for a limited number of inputs we could probably provide enough snaking.

As the Band Guy, I want to hand the House Person left, right, subs (if separate) and front fill/under balcony/etc in whatever manner they need it.  Many times the fills are processed from an internal split of L/R, same with subs; sometimes you can get into all the subsystems with individual inputs.  What I do depends on how the house rig sounds and how much time we have to make it play nicer if I don't like it at first audition.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Thank you very much for taking the time to give me some insight and what to do's, very much appreciate everyone here.
Always having clean/sober fun, it's when it starts to feel like a 9-5 job is when I'll consider a different job, but after 15 yrs of operating and 4 years of owning and operating all gigs still feel like the first gig.
Love this "job". ☺️
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Matthew Graves (Jr) on December 23, 2014, 08:04:28 PM
I'll ignore the "Full Sail" thing... saying that they are setting any standards is pretty much a joke. 

But... as Tim has said assume L/R/S/FF.  Also, assume that they will have processing in place that makes the room "flat" and is properly time aligned.  Your best bet is to have a processor of your own in your rack to deal with any issues in the space.  That will also give you some additional outputs if needed if their rig is broken up weird.  In your default settings in your console use matrices to feed each zone then send your outputs to those matrices... that will help you considerably if you hit a house with a weird system or a center cluster. 

Also, be aware that if you are playing a smaller club that is not used to road desks be prepared to hit issues.  You might have to supply house music, an announce mic, or house PSA's.  Be sure to spell this out in the advance.  Also, be sure that your rider mentions how big of an FOH footprint you need.
I think I need to explain the " Full Sail" statement.
I was advancing a show and had asked the house guy about sending him L/R/subs and I'll just use his house eq's, no sense in changing someone's eq's since they know best the room. His response included the Full Sail standard operations blah blah blah statement,  I almost laughed out loud but gave him the benefit of the doubt because let's face it, I know I don't know everything, I've only guest engineered corporate rigs and never actually been corporate employed so I wanted to get to the straight truth about the "Full Sail" statement. I didn't think the industries standards were based off of that but I just had to ask.
Again, thank you so much for taking the time to respond, greatly appreciate it.
\m/ \m/
Jr
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 24, 2014, 02:45:48 AM
Any dude who quotes full sail SOP during a venue advance is pretty weird. Really weird.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 27, 2014, 11:09:39 AM

I think I need to explain the " Full Sail" statement.
I was advancing a show and had asked the house guy about sending him L/R/subs and I'll just use his house eq's, no sense in changing someone's eq's since they know best the room. His response included the Full Sail standard operations blah blah blah statement,  I almost laughed out loud but gave him the benefit of the doubt because let's face it, I know I don't know everything, I've only guest engineered corporate rigs and never actually been corporate employed so I wanted to get to the straight truth about the "Full Sail" statement. I didn't think the industries standards were based off of that but I just had to ask.
Again, thank you so much for taking the time to respond, greatly appreciate it.
\m/ \m/
Jr

I am an hour and a half from Full Sail and I have met very few folks even from their program that would say something like that. I have also met very few of their grads that are willing to push boxes and load a truck but want a job in the industry. I'm sure there are plenty of great folks coming out of there, I'm just not meeting them....
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 27, 2014, 12:02:37 PM
I am an hour and a half from Full Sail and I have met very few folks even from their program that would say something like that. I have also met very few of their grads that are willing to push boxes and load a truck but want a job in the industry. I'm sure there are plenty of great folks coming out of there, I'm just not meeting them....
I have only met 2 "empty sheets" grads who were worth anything.

And each of those guys would have been great without spending any time down in FLA.

It is what you make of it-and if you are not willing to work and just want "the glory", then this business is not for you.

Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 27, 2014, 05:09:25 PM
Can someone explain to me what 'full sail' means?


Steve.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 27, 2014, 05:23:51 PM

I am an hour and a half from Full Sail and I have met very few folks even from their program that would say something like that. I have also met very few of their grads that are willing to push boxes and load a truck but want a job in the industry. I'm sure there are plenty of great folks coming out of there, I'm just not meeting them....

I have met exactly one person ever from full sail that I thought was not a waste of oxygen.  Hard worker, lighting person, ready to learn, and try new ways of doing things. 

If there are other good people who go to full sail, the must be "too good" to work in any of the venues are here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 27, 2014, 06:02:29 PM

Can someone explain to me what 'full sail' means?


Steve.

www.fullsail.edu (http://www.fullsail.edu)

Super expensive recording and production school in Orlando that pumps out a lot of kids who know how to play with Avid toys but otherwise tend to be projects to take on as employees.

I know several and only one or 2 are employable in the industry.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 27, 2014, 10:51:49 PM
www.fullsail.edu (http://www.fullsail.edu)

Super expensive recording and production school in Orlando that pumps out a lot of kids who know how to play with Avid toys but otherwise tend to be projects to take on as employees.

I know several and only one or 2 are employable in the industry.

What is amazing is how inept our higher education system is at churning out engineers that can be productive.  This conversation could be about IT guys.  They come out of school and I have no idea what they did for four + years.   

This yields a really funny story, I was hired by a local tech school to teach electronics troubleshooting.  The syllabus was OK but not real practical.  Certainly not in a production environment (such as paging what I was doing at the time or broadcast) where every second was dollars and lives.  Anyway the exercise was to use this huge variac to troubleshoot something (an amp or PS) and just apply enough voltage to start taking measurements.

So I let the kids dig around and do their thing, it was fun.  Then I said, in the real world you aren't going to have a lab or  a variac in your tool bag.  Plugged the defective gear in and let the cap explode and told them "replace that cap and regulator" or whatever it was that was blown apart. 

i was fired the next day.

I did get to tell the department head that I would not hire him to put jumper cables together.  I was good at winning friends and influencing people back then.

Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 28, 2014, 04:21:25 AM
What is amazing is how inept our higher education system is at churning out engineers that can be productive.  This conversation could be about IT guys.


Over here it is the same with electronic engineers.  On a couple of occasions we have employed engineers with degrees.  One of them once asked me which way round an LED is connected.  I told him to go and find out for himself.  It turned out that his degree was in something called systems engineering which you could pass by just drawing block diagrams of things whilst not learning anything useful to anyone.

I manage to continue to be employed as an electronic and mechanical engineer without a degree.

Plugged the defective gear in and let the cap explode and told them "replace that cap and regulator" or whatever it was that was blown apart. 

i was fired the next day.

I did get to tell the department head that I would not hire him to put jumper cables together.  I was good at winning friends and influencing people back then.


We think the same way!



Steve.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 28, 2014, 09:25:53 AM
I learned more in my first 2 days working at my local PAC than I did in 2 years of "Applied Theater Technology" in college. I also almost died several times in those 2 days as I was utterly unprepared for all the boxes going every direction, line sets flying in and out, and the general controlled chaos that comes with a PAC load in.

I think that most of the college courses I took could have been condensed to about 10% of the book stuff and then much more experience based learning. My 2 cents
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 28, 2014, 11:32:28 AM
I, and several other alumnus of my higher education institution, often lament that there was not a course in general management.  How to manage people, how to learn how you fit into the organization you work in, etc.  That said when I was in school my roomates and I all worked over hire for the local, then when I was a senior I was invited to join.  I'm still a card carrying IA member.  I owe them a lot.  I learned as much or more working for them in college as I did in school. 

There is a larger conversation to be had in this country about the value of higher education vs on the job training.  Then again, when I hire I look for a degree....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on December 28, 2014, 04:26:53 PM

Then again, when I hire I look for a degree....


Why?  Honestly, I am curious and wonder how many in management have actually considered why they want to see a degree?

I found it frustrating to be denied an opportunity for a position that my experience had me more qualified for than recent engineering grads.  One HR manager was interested when a position became available-when she moved on her replacement refused to consider anyone without a degree.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 28, 2014, 04:44:58 PM

Why?  Honestly, I am curious and wonder how many in management have actually considered why they want to see a degree?

I found it frustrating to be denied an opportunity for a position that my experience had me more qualified for than recent engineering grads.  One HR manager was interested when a position became available-when she moved on her replacement refused to consider anyone without a degree.

It's really a complete package thing for me.  My department head positions require a 4 year degree or equivalent experience.  A degree means that you have figured out how to apply yourself to a project (a degree) and see it to completion, you have the technology and writing skills to form ideas and communicate them to others. You have the capacity (depending on the type of degree) to learn complex conceptual theory.  My lighting heads need a working knowledge of dmx and networking.  And I don't just mean what plugs in where.  We are going to talk about stop bits and transmission speed on dmx.  I want them to understand the difference between a servo and a stepper motor and when either might be used in a moving head.  They don't need component level repair experience, but it's a plus.  On the sound side, networking again.  We have Dante and cobranet networks and several of our facilities.  One facility uses both networks for different portions of the facility. 

We have a government application process.  I can ask supplemental questions, but in general online application processes have made it way too easy for unqualified bottom feeders to submit an app.  I don't have time to read 200 applications for a position.  A degree is one way to filter those results.  Then i may only see 50 applications, then I have to rank them, rejections at this point require written justifications, and select people to interview. I have a box where I ask someone without a four year degree to describe how their experience is equivalent.  I am considering asking a technical question on my next round of hires, some sort of multiple choice that if someone gets wrong, I don't see their application.

Now - that said, I have employees without degrees who are GREAT, but they had to have damn good applications to break through.

Seriously though, 70% of the apps I get are from people who have no relevant experience and are just applying to show they are looking for work on their unemployment.  I feel sorry for people without jobs, but I hate them clogging up my application process.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 28, 2014, 08:08:00 PM
A degree means that you have figured out how to apply yourself to a project (a degree) and see it to completion, you have the technology and writing skills to form ideas and communicate them to others. You have the capacity (depending on the type of degree) to learn complex conceptual theory.

It really doesn't.

Some might have these qualities - but equally, you can find them in those without too.

A degree is one way to filter those results.  Then i may only see 50 applications

Having filtered out the likes of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Richard Branson and Edwin Land!


Steve.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 28, 2014, 08:19:30 PM

[size=78%]It really doesn't.[/size]

[size=78%]Some might have these qualities - but equally, you can find them in those without too.[/size]


Steve.

Steve you are right, to an extent and I think I am as well.  I don't suppose that we are going to agree on this.  There are plenty of people with and without degrees with all ranges of skill.

My experience is just that, my experience, and it is what I have to use.  In my experience if I had to choose with degrees or without, experience has shown me that I will get abetter applicant pool with than without. 

I'm curious and this question goes out to everyone - if you have to take formal applications, everyone gets a fair shake, this is public sector, what questions will you ask?  What objective criteria would you use to thin the pool of applicants?  200 people can't come in for a practical skills test.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 28, 2014, 09:10:21 PM
Steve you are right, to an extent and I think I am as well.  I don't suppose that we are going to agree on this.  There are plenty of people with and without degrees with all ranges of skill.

My experience is just that, my experience, and it is what I have to use.  In my experience if I had to choose with degrees or without, experience has shown me that I will get abetter applicant pool with than without. 

I'm curious and this question goes out to everyone - if you have to take formal applications, everyone gets a fair shake, this is public sector, what questions will you ask?  What objective criteria would you use to thin the pool of applicants?  200 people can't come in for a practical skills test.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would say that it really matters on the particular job that is being offered.

A higher education offers and develops particular skill sets, and real world experience offers different skill sets.

It is not that one is "better" than another, but different sets of skills are needed for different jobs.

For example-Just because somebody knows the details of the physics involved in designing a loudspeaker or amplifier does not mean that they can mix a band.

Yes maybe they can-but I have know some good mixers who had no idea what ohms law was or could tell you how large 1Khz is.

Being good at report writing  doesn't mean you know how to pack a truck and so forth.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 28, 2014, 09:18:52 PM
I think the sad reality is that a college degree is almost equivalent to what a high school degree used to be as far as hiring. Many positions don't care if your degree is even in the field of the position.

As someone stated earlier, the education is what you make of it. One of the best engineers in my region has only a high school diploma but has the skills and knowledge for any audio gig around here. But, he took every opportunity on the job to learn, go to trainings, practice his skills and learn from guest engineers.
  Conversely, as in the case of many (not all of course) of the Full Sail kids there was not much initiative taken to learn and hone a variety of skills or do the unfun parts of the skill set.

I don't have an answer for you Cailen, but I do think we are looking at a higher education crisis where these degrees cost as much as a house and really do not prepare candidates nearly as much as a few months of on the job training by a willing learner.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Bob Charest on December 28, 2014, 10:04:33 PM
The paper may get you a chance at the gig, but your performance and attitude will keep it for you.

I got a degree in music composition - it never got me a job except for two times: When applying to teach improvisation at the University of Maine and then when I went to work for an insurance company as a hardware tech. I learned programming on my own and then was hired as a systems programmer... spent a total of 20 years in IT while doing music, then back to music full time... never got at degree in Computer Science.

Someone who is willing to work hard and wants to learn will always stand out. Some of the people we hire to help on road crew really demonstrate that.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on December 29, 2014, 09:46:45 PM
The last two posts mentioned "willing learner" "wants to learn"-to me that is the key qualification in any tech position because much of what you know today will be obsolete in 5 to 10 years.  How to discern that trait is the question.

Cailen,  I agree with the traits you said a degree shows-and using one as a significant qualifier makes sense. 

When the presence or absence of a degree is used as a litmus test, IMO it potentially rules out the best person for the job.  In my case, I wound up teaching the newly graduated engineers the difference between a servo and a stepper motor-as well as how to use a command prompt line in DOS-essential for older equipment we had, but totally foreign to their generation. 
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 29, 2014, 09:55:40 PM
The last two posts mentioned "willing learner" "wants to learn"-to me that is the key qualification in any tech position because much of what you know today will be obsolete in 5 to 10 years.  How to discern that trait is the question.

Cailen,  I agree with the traits you said a degree shows-and using one as a significant qualifier makes sense. 

When the presence or absence of a degree is used as a litmus test, IMO it potentially rules out the best person for the job.  In my case, I wound up teaching the newly graduated engineers the difference between a servo and a stepper motor-as well as how to use a command prompt line in DOS-essential for older equipment we had, but totally foreign to their generation.

Command line prompts are foreign to this generation, just end users.  Windows Server, Linux, all heavy telecom gear (Cisco Routers, Switches etc.), phone switches etc.  All run CLI's.  Anyone who has messed with an Arduino or a Pi has also had exposure.

You are looking for someone with a flair for electronics and the ability to learn new gear quick.  Being able to use a foreign CLI with ? and help and hack your way around is a bellwether of the overall chops.

Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Chris White on December 29, 2014, 10:43:57 PM
If you end up doing a fly date don't walk in to a venue with an M7 and insert your thumb drive and recall your console image and wipe the house engineers right after he had done some tweaking but hasn't had a chance to save it. Ask first. And then don't spend the last half of the set updating your Facebook status while missing things on stage that you should be watching for. And yes both things were the same BE. I sometimes wonder how some people still have jobs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 30, 2014, 12:00:18 AM
If you end up doing a fly date don't walk in to a venue with an M7 and insert your thumb drive and recall your console image and wipe the house engineers right after he had done some tweaking but hasn't had a chance to save it. Ask first. And then don't spend the last half of the set updating your Facebook status while missing things on stage that you should be watching for. And yes both things were the same BE. I sometimes wonder how some people still have jobs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree, the Facebook thing makes me nuts.  Someone is setting up and they are taking pictures of the gear, the instruments, a cool fly loft whatever and there head is anywhere but in the game. 

In my entire 30 years I have a total of one picture with an Artist, Dan Fogelberg and a Jim Photoglo.  I very much hesitated on that one but had a lot of respect for both of them as artists and found a tactful way.  I was a contractor, doing grunt work just to be in the presence of professionals and was very much worried I might be called out. 

Don't ever apologize for holding people to professional standards.

Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Mike Sokol on December 30, 2014, 12:17:10 AM
Can someone explain to me what 'full sail' means?

Steve.

Full Sail actually hired me a few times a decade ago as a guest professor to teach some special day-long classes on surround-sound mixing techniques. But instead of the 6 to 12 students per class at the conservatory where I teach, there was a room of 200 to 300 students in lecture seating. It's really hard to teach any kind of sound production techniques to several hundred students at a time, but that seemed to be the standard procedure at Full Sail. 

My current teaching gig at Shenandoah Conservatory let's me teach a live sound practicum class for sophomores every semester where I make them set up and tear down a sound system every week. I also bring in strange musical instruments and show them my bag of tricks on how to mic and eq instruments in the mix. For the final exam last week I gave them a basic band/instrument list including backup singers and had them draw a stage plot, pick a digital mixer with iPad control, digital snake, floor monitors, FOH speakers, and all microphones plus a cable count. Oh, they also had to attach a price list of what it all would cost. I gave them a full week to figure this out and turn it in on exam day. It was open book, open notes, open Google, etc... just like the real world would be. They were all terrified when I handed out the assignment, but most of them did really well and thanked me for a great exam. One really timid female student turned in an A+ paper which put the rest of the students to shame, especially the self appointed boy genius in the class. I think she could be great at this.   

I generally pick a student per class that I think has the stones to intern for one of the big sound companies in the area, and give them my recommendation. But first I drag these potential interns out of a few of my own gigs to test them under fire. These sound companies say they have all turned out be great interns and really don't need to do much of an interview any more since they know I won't recommend someone that can't do the job. Some of these students have graduated and been hired on full time in the sound business, and many are now working at least part time in the field which I think is really cool. But this kind of attention is only possible when I can count all the students in a class on both hands. I can't do that with 200 students at a pop.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 30, 2014, 04:27:20 AM
I agree, the Facebook thing makes me nuts.  Someone is setting up and they are taking pictures of the gear, the instruments, a cool fly loft whatever and there head is anywhere but in the game.


My brother has zero tolerance to this - albeit in building (I think you call it construction). Anyone seen using their phone without a very good reason is no longer working for him.  They are told of this condition before they start but they shouldn't really need to be told.




Steve.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 30, 2014, 09:46:19 AM
 

My current teaching gig at Shenandoah Conservatory
WOW-totally off topic, but that is where my mom and dad meet-so many years ago.

My dad could not afford to go to college-but he found out that Shenandoah had a scholarship for an oboe player.  He was a clarinet player, so he taught himself oboe so he could go to school.

My mom was also a music student and she was walking down the hall one day and heard this weird instrument (it was my dad practicing).

She stopped in to listen-and well, later on I was born.

What a small world-------

Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 30, 2014, 01:02:13 PM
My dad could not afford to go to college-but he found out that Shenandoah had a scholarship for an oboe player.  He was a clarinet player, so he taught himself oboe so he could go to school.


I have a friend who plays clarinet and oboe.  He wanted to join the British army's school of music and had to teach himself bassoon to get in.




Steve.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Mike Sokol on December 30, 2014, 09:57:06 PM
She stopped in to listen-and well, later on I was born.

Who knew that an oboe player could pick up girls? I always assumed it was the guitar players....  :o
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 31, 2014, 05:23:18 AM
Who knew that an oboe player could pick up girls? I always assumed it was the guitar players....  :o


That's what I hoped too!


Steve.
Title: Re: Guest engineer
Post by: Jay Barracato on December 31, 2014, 09:53:22 AM
I played the buffoon for 4 years in high school. It wasn't until I applied for the conservancy that I found out it wasn't an instrument.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk