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Title: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 14, 2018, 08:25:47 AM
currently have 2 jbl prx815w tops over 4 rcf 8003 mk2 subs, and it was quite the system

how ever a tweeter has blown and i need replacments quick, cant wait for warranty repair.

my first choice would be jbl srx15p but these are not available.

what is ready to collect at shop:

yamaha dsr 115 136db 1400w £900
ART 745-A MK4  133db 1300w £1100 (guy in shop swears this is the best option)
QSC equivalent

as these will always run in high pass the descision is not so easily made, it is the specs on the compression drivers that has got me thinking. rcf is 1.4" with a 4" voice coil vs the yamaha 2" voice coil 1" throat.

on the bear face of the figures and description i just do not understand which would be the best choice.

the music is strictly house music, ive got the bass sorted and just need ear shattering highs that i can dial back to suit and leave some headroom.

buying in next couple of days, desperate for help

ps, should i insist on the srx15p no matter what?!

Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: David Morison on August 14, 2018, 09:56:13 AM
currently have 2 jbl prx815w tops over 4 rcf 8003 mk2 subs, and it was quite the system

how ever a tweeter has blown and i need replacments quick, cant wait for warranty repair.

my first choice would be jbl srx15p but these are not available.

what is ready to collect at shop:

yamaha dsr 115 136db 1400w £900
ART 745-A MK4  133db 1300w £1100 (guy in shop swears this is the best option)
QSC equivalent

as these will always run in high pass the descision is not so easily made, it is the specs on the compression drivers that has got me thinking. rcf is 1.4" with a 4" voice coil vs the yamaha 2" voice coil 1" throat.

on the bear face of the figures and description i just do not understand which would be the best choice.

the music is strictly house music, ive got the bass sorted and just need ear shattering highs that i can dial back to suit and leave some headroom.

buying in next couple of days, desperate for help

ps, should i insist on the srx15p no matter what?!

If the urgency is just due to an upcoming gig, isn't there any chance of hiring instead of buying, to get you time to have the warranty repair on your current boxes sorted?
Would be a lot cheaper than buying a whole new pair of tops just because of one blown tweeter.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Steve Litcher on August 14, 2018, 10:20:06 AM
If the urgency is just due to an upcoming gig, isn't there any chance of hiring instead of buying, to get you time to have the warranty repair on your current boxes sorted?
Would be a lot cheaper than buying a whole new pair of tops just because of one blown tweeter.

+1

And... if you're always using them on top of the 8003 subs, why go with 15s? I'd be looking at the HD32a or DSR112 for top duties. You're probably passing them anywhere above 80Hz, so a 15" mid-bass seems unnecessary.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Sean Zurbrick on August 14, 2018, 10:22:17 AM
To answer your question, as the owner of a pair of 745s that's what I'd choose. Fantastic compression driver in that box and I love the 650 Hz crossover point. With a beefy woofer, they also handle bass well which is nice if used without subs.

That said, it does seem silly to buy if you have any other option - renting, hiring, borrowing. Unless you know it isn't the case, there's a decent chance you just need a diaphragm replacement, which is likely something you can do yourself.

To test either make extension leads from the box that has the problem and run to the compression driver in the one that's working OR swap power modules and see if the compression driver is working. If you find out the compression driver is bad get it fixed or replace yourself. Even if you have to pay for it yourself it will be 5% the cost of buying a pair of new speakers. Even if if a new diaphragm doesn't fix the problem, it's not a bad idea to have a spare in case one does blow.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 14, 2018, 12:49:20 PM
currently have 2 jbl prx815w tops over 4 rcf 8003 mk2 subs, and it was quite the system

how ever a tweeter has blown and i need replacments quick, cant wait for warranty repair.

my first choice would be jbl srx15p but these are not available.

what is ready to collect at shop:

yamaha dsr 115 136db 1400w £900
ART 745-A MK4  133db 1300w £1100 (guy in shop swears this is the best option)
QSC equivalent

as these will always run in high pass the descision is not so easily made, it is the specs on the compression drivers that has got me thinking. rcf is 1.4" with a 4" voice coil vs the yamaha 2" voice coil 1" throat.

on the bear face of the figures and description i just do not understand which would be the best choice.

the music is strictly house music, ive got the bass sorted and just need ear shattering highs that i can dial back to suit and leave some headroom.

buying in next couple of days, desperate for help

ps, should i insist on the srx15p no matter what?!

Or try this: work with your service center, buy a new diaphragm and have them keep the old one for JBL warranty, and when the new parts are approved, you have a spare.

It seems very silly - in the Monty Python manner - to purchase a pair of new loudspeakers because you have an HF failure.  Hire another JBL or a pair of something else to get you through the gig.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 15, 2018, 05:36:36 AM
oooops should have said i can return both jbl tops as they are only a couple of months old, and swap for any of the above with a slight extra payment.

i cant wait for the warranty reapir and would be more than happy to get my hands on a better pair of speakers, are they better though?

so which speaker will provide the best top end? i will never run them on there own. they will always be above a single or double rcf 8003mk2.

many thanks for the replies guys.

the rcf is a plastic box with some great internals or so it seems.

the yamaha dsr115 has a 7 year warranty and also good specs.

I would like to say i used a set of jbl 712 prx for years on my mobile disco rig and i absolutley loved them, i got a job recenlty in a bar where they were running a pair of yamaha dxr112 and i have to say reading these forums i was expeccting alot more from the dxr. simply no comparison on the yamaha dxr vs jbl prx range. the yamaha is one flat sounding speaker and this after many months of comparison.

i hope the dsr115 will not disapoint me in the same way the dxr112 did.

im only choosing 15" boxes so the stack looks good on the eye, ive got a couple of prx712 and they look lost ontop of the subs. even though i know they sound just as good if not better.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Scott Olewiler on August 15, 2018, 08:28:39 AM

im only choosing 15" boxes so the stack looks good on the eye, ive got a couple of prx712 and they look lost ontop of the subs. even though i know they sound just as good if not better.

If this the kind of reasoning you use to choose a speaker, why even ask for advice here?
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Sean Zurbrick on August 15, 2018, 09:11:26 AM
Strange logic for choosing a 15" speaker aside, IMO the RCF is JBL SRX level or above at 2/3 the weight. You just need to get over the stigma of the plastic box and be OK with the aesthetic. One downside might be service and support. It may be better where you're located, but in the USA it's a joke.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Steve Crump on August 15, 2018, 09:45:03 AM
One downside might be service and support. It may be better where you're located, but in the USA it's a joke.

I must be the exception. I am in the US and I sent back an Evox 8 for repairs and it went well.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Sean Zurbrick on August 15, 2018, 10:59:05 AM
I must be the exception. I am in the US and I sent back an Evox 8 for repairs and it went well.

I'm glad it went well. Maybe they are finally getting their act together. My experiences were from 2008 to 2014 or 15. Just crazy stuff that I've gone into a bit on forums before, but don't want to rehash. The short story is, it was an unorganized mess.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Rob Spence on August 15, 2018, 12:35:42 PM
oooops should have said i can return both jbl tops as they are only a couple of months old, and swap for any of the above with a slight extra payment.

i cant wait for the warranty reapir and would be more than happy to get my hands on a better pair of speakers, are they better though?

so which speaker will provide the best top end? i will never run them on there own. they will always be above a single or double rcf 8003mk2.

many thanks for the replies guys.

the rcf is a plastic box with some great internals or so it seems.

the yamaha dsr115 has a 7 year warranty and also good specs.

I would like to say i used a set of jbl 712 prx for years on my mobile disco rig and i absolutley loved them, i got a job recenlty in a bar where they were running a pair of yamaha dxr112 and i have to say reading these forums i was expeccting alot more from the dxr. simply no comparison on the yamaha dxr vs jbl prx range. the yamaha is one flat sounding speaker and this after many months of comparison.

i hope the dsr115 will not disapoint me in the same way the dxr112 did.

im only choosing 15" boxes so the stack looks good on the eye, ive got a couple of prx712 and they look lost ontop of the subs. even though i know they sound just as good if not better.

There is no DXR112, it is DXR12. The DSR112 is going to have exactly the same HF as the 15” model but with subs may actually sound better.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Dave Garoutte on August 15, 2018, 12:41:21 PM
There is no DXR112, it is DXR12. The DSR112 is going to have exactly the same HF as the 15” model but with subs may actually sound better.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I have both, though I have not A-B ed them.
The crossover point is probably different and the boxes are much bigger on the DSR115, so it's likely that they sound different.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Lance Hallmark on August 15, 2018, 01:28:26 PM
The Yamaha DSR112 would be my recommendation. Sounds better than the DSR115 as long as you are using subs. My current pick for mid priced tops. These are my go to tops when not using my JTR Noesis 3TXs.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Greg Harwood on August 15, 2018, 01:58:16 PM
The Yamaha DSR112 would be my recommendation. Sounds better than the DSR115 as long as you are using subs. My current pick for mid priced tops. These are my go to tops when not using my JTR Noesis 3TXs.

^^^This^^^
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 16, 2018, 08:04:26 AM
If this the kind of reasoning you use to choose a speaker, why even ask for advice here?

I think ive explained quite clearly why i want advice and why i want 15's? ill say it again though slowly.

1. the 15" variants are available to collect immidiatley
2. i like the way they look on top of my subs, 12" vs 15" the difference is slight at best
3. i play house music, i just need it to go boom, pah, boom, pah, boom, pah ............ loud and not much else

the main question was on the compression drivers. yamaha dsr115 2" with 2" voice coil vs the RCF 745mk4 1.4" with 4" voice coil.

yeh you rattled my cage a bit with your stupid remarks, and this is my reply.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 16, 2018, 08:09:49 AM
Strange logic for choosing a 15" speaker aside, IMO the RCF is JBL SRX level or above at 2/3 the weight. You just need to get over the stigma of the plastic box and be OK with the aesthetic. One downside might be service and support. It may be better where you're located, but in the USA it's a joke.

This is exactly the kind of response i was looking for. The SRX is slightly more expensive and get rave reviews and i myself have owned a srx835p previously.

yes the good fellow in the shop is saying exactly this, he knows its a plastic box and he knows its expensive, but hes telling me its so worth it.

well ill be A B'ing the DSR and the 745 in the morning folks so ill let you know, theres quite a price hike on top of the prx815w ill be returning though so i would expect the order of quality to be JBL - Yamaha - RCF.

but thats going to show in the test, many thanks
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 16, 2018, 08:12:38 AM
There is no DXR112, it is DXR12. The DSR112 is going to have exactly the same HF as the 15” model but with subs may actually sound better.

Thanks for correcting my typo, the way folk talk about the dxr12 on here and other forums you would think its the last speaker you would ever need.

anyway, the DSR112 is actually in stock so i will throw this into the mix also.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on August 16, 2018, 08:39:24 AM
I think ive explained quite clearly why i want advice and why i want 15's? ill say it again though slowly.

1. the 15" variants are available to collect immidiatley
2. i like the way they look on top of my subs, 12" vs 15" the difference is slight at best
3. i play house music, i just need it to go boom, pah, boom, pah, boom, pah ............ loud and not much else

the main question was on the compression drivers. yamaha dsr115 2" with 2" voice coil vs the RCF 745mk4 1.4" with 4" voice coil.

yeh you rattled my cage a bit with your stupid remarks, and this is my reply.

IMO, the RCF ought to be better. The 15"/1" format is doomed to failure IME, as the 1" exit driver can't reach low enough to meet a 15" cone. Some manufacturers take the crossover up to 2kHz (or higher), at which point the output from the 15" is basically a laserbeam. So you've got wide dispersion bass and lower mids, and then narrowing dispersion up to 2kHz, and then controlled dispersion from the horn (though even the horn can be variable).
If you want a 15" midbass driver, the compression driver needs to be able to handle a lower crossover point so you've got a frequency response that's smooth when you move off to one side.

1" exit HF units will do better in the 10-20kHz octave, but the sacrifice in the midrange simply isn't worth it IMO.

Given that, I'd take the RCF cabinets every time.

Chris
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 16, 2018, 08:59:34 AM
IMO, the RCF ought to be better. The 15"/1" format is doomed to failure IME, as the 1" exit driver can't reach low enough to meet a 15" cone. Some manufacturers take the crossover up to 2kHz (or higher), at which point the output from the 15" is basically a laserbeam. So you've got wide dispersion bass and lower mids, and then narrowing dispersion up to 2kHz, and then controlled dispersion from the horn (though even the horn can be variable).
If you want a 15" midbass driver, the compression driver needs to be able to handle a lower crossover point so you've got a frequency response that's smooth when you move off to one side.

1" exit HF units will do better in the 10-20kHz octave, but the sacrifice in the midrange simply isn't worth it IMO.

Given that, I'd take the RCF cabinets every time.

Chris

Recently i had to choose between 4 yamaha Dxs18 vs 4 Rcf 800 mk2

the rcf was noticiably louder and 10kg lighter per sub even though the max spl was rated lower than the yamaha.

i wonder if im going to find that the rcf sounds better than the yamaha again, i will also throw in my working prx815w into the sound test.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Steve Crump on August 16, 2018, 09:37:18 AM
Recently i had to choose between 4 yamaha Dxs18 vs 4 Rcf 800 mk2

the rcf was noticiably louder and 10kg lighter per sub even though the max spl was rated lower than the yamaha.

i wonder if im going to find that the rcf sounds better than the yamaha again, i will also throw in my working prx815w into the sound test.

If you do make time to compare, report back here and give us your opinion. All the praise that Yamaha gets here can't be wrong, but I have never actually read a direct comparison of the RCF ART or even the HD32.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 16, 2018, 11:31:34 AM
how ever a tweeter has blown and i need replacments quick, cant wait for warranty repair.
As an aside to your current situation/discussion...

Keep in mind that most manufacturer's warranties will NOT cover failure due to abuse/misuse, but rather only actual manufacturing defects. Powered speaker systems are quite resilient these days, so (other than a manufacturing defect) it takes a LOT to blow their parts out.

You might get a pass on a first repair if it's user abuse that causes the failure, but subsequent repairs they are going to be less eager to repair it for free. So, it would be advisable (if user error was the culprit) to also learn *WHY* this happened and ensure you don't have it happen again in the future.

-Ray
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Thomas Le on August 16, 2018, 05:01:31 PM
If you need something quick, why not rent in the meantime? Also I don't think blown tweeters are covered in warranty unless there's a defect in the crossover/power amp. JBL will probably say you need to replace the HF driver.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Luke Geis on August 16, 2018, 05:51:00 PM
I have never once looked at a PA and said it must sound good. I would be more impressed if I saw one that was tiny and quaint but blew my socks off, than looking at the wall of sound and walking away saying meh.......

Nobody cares about how cool your PA looks if it sounds like ass. And even if it did sound good, you are not doing yourself a service by bringing a PA that goes against the best practices and standards.

While 15" or 12" speakers are just fine either way and neither will be an outright winner in terms of performance when coupled with a sub, you can quickly see how one has a diminishing return. More cost, more weight, no increase in performance and technically inferior sonically; that is what you get with a 15" speaker. Now that is not to say that 15" speakers sound bad, they don't, but the gap in performance and the shortcomings of 15" speakers are well noted.

The point being, don't buy because it " looks " a certain way, buy because it performs a certain way. Sound does not care about aspect ratio and how it looks. You would be surprised to know most people don't care either. I agree with the others though, rent and wait till you can fix what you have. If you are dead set on returning and replacing them, do it for the right reasons.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 16, 2018, 07:28:02 PM
I have never once looked at a PA and said it must sound good. I would be more impressed if I saw one that was tiny and quaint but blew my socks off, than looking at the wall of sound and walking away saying meh.......

Nobody cares about how cool your PA looks if it sounds like ass. And even if it did sound good, you are not doing yourself a service by bringing a PA that goes against the best practices and standards.

While 15" or 12" speakers are just fine either way and neither will be an outright winner in terms of performance when coupled with a sub, you can quickly see how one has a diminishing return. More cost, more weight, no increase in performance and technically inferior sonically; that is what you get with a 15" speaker. Now that is not to say that 15" speakers sound bad, they don't, but the gap in performance and the shortcomings of 15" speakers are well noted.

The point being, don't buy because it " looks " a certain way, buy because it performs a certain way. Sound does not care about aspect ratio and how it looks. You would be surprised to know most people don't care either. I agree with the others though, rent and wait till you can fix what you have. If you are dead set on returning and replacing them, do it for the right reasons.

everything you said is correct although i am not choosing some lame speaker here that happens to look good. The choice is a dsr115 or a 745a, the 745a being one of the ugliest speakers ive ever seen but i know its going to sing after all the reading and watching ive done today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ireX_kcQbkk

when i compare my own stock jbl prx712 12" vs jbl 815w 15" i know the 815 sounds better and appears to get louder although ive not had the time for extensive testing, on a seperate note both the 12" models have been back for tweeters and a 15".

im pretty sure either the dsr115 or the 745a will be an upgrade over the current jbl's.

like i said, they happen to have the dsr112 on the shelf aswell so itll be a 4 way shoot out dsr112 dsr115 prx815w rcf 745a - lucky me!
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 16, 2018, 08:27:06 PM
on a seperate note both the 12" models have been back for tweeters and a 15".

...... you've blown the HF on both the PRX-712s AND a 15" JBL driver?!?

So, it's often mentioned about the Skool of Ye Olde Hard Knocks. You need to figure out WHAT is causing these drivers to go. Most likely, it's pushing them harder than they are designed to do- and until you figure out where your maximum level lies, you will keep doing this. As I mentioned before, abusing speakers is typically NOT covered under warranty, so unless you either are having a string of bad luck with defective drivers, or a warranty repair shop that's all "this totally wasn't Andy's fault!" eventually you are going to start footing a repair bill.

It would be advisable to figure out what's going on before you start encountering those repair bills. :-)

-Ray
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Luke Geis on August 16, 2018, 09:55:43 PM
Based on this new information, the weak link is not the speakers. The HF driver in the PRX 12" is the same as the one in the 15".

The DSR will not be a significant step up in performance either. The PRX model line is no slouch, but certainly not going to knock the socks off of anyone either. The DSR model line isn't any louder and not any more performance oriented other than a better crossover design. Which one will sound better is probably not really for debate. The DSR sounds great, but the PRX sounds pretty good too. The only major difference between them is that the DSR uses a 2" compression driver whereas the PRX uses a 1.5" CD. The 2" CD in the DSR should be more up to the task, but that isn't saying much seeing as how the peak performance of both speakers is the same and they have the same wattage amplifier.

I have blown all of 3 speaker drivers in my day. One was on purpose and the other two were simply me doing what the client asked for; more more more on a show that ran for 16 hours straight......... There are really only two reasons a speaker pops these days. Either you ask for more than it can do right then and there, or you ask it to work too hard for too long. Time is probably the biggest killer of speakers. These days speakers get so loud that volume isn't really as much an issue anymore, but when we ask a speaker to make a lot sound for a really long time, that is another story.

Modern powered speakers have only a peak SPL rating. So all we know is how loud it can potentially get. When we push the speaker until we see the little yellow limit light start to blink, that is telling us that the limits of the speaker have been reached. It won't get any louder, it will just run hotter and hotter until pop goes the driver. We can only expect to extract perhaps 9/10ths of what the speaker says it will do and for long-running shows that are perhaps longer than 4-5 hours, we should shoot to utilize even less of that potential volume in order to not overheat the drivers. You cannot run a speaker at full output for very long or it simply overheats.

The compression driver of speakers is generally the easiest to pop. It is smaller and less efficient at getting rid of heat. The element doesn't move very much and the heat sinking can only do so much for an object that is not subjected to much in the way of cooling. The CD is always at the top of the box and heat rises. This is why larger CD's do better with heat. They have that much more surface area to dissipate the heat and due to their size can generally handle more wattage.

It sounds as if you have burned through three speakers in pretty short order and are blaming the speaker for its shortcomings? The speaker will only do what you tell it to do. If you tell it to do too much, or too much for too long, it will let you know by simply burning out. You really do need to asses WHY the speakers popped. Another speaker of the same specs is typically not the answer. The DSR's may very well be your answer, but what will you do if you pop that driver too? There is forensics that can tell what made a speaker pop. If you don't think there is a fault detection and logging function inside the amp, you would be wrong. The warranty shop will pull the log and know right away if the speaker was abused, or not. In my experience, DJ's and inexperienced operators who cater to DJ's, are often the ones that see incidents like this; where they burn up several speakers before they learn what the issue truly is. Eventually, they do one of two things. They get a speaker that they can't possibly blow, or they learn how to operate the ones they do have within its limitations.

House music is pretty demanding on a PA system. The constant boom hiss of the kick and hi-hat coupled with lots of synthesizer sounds really work the PA hard. Keep in mind many synth sounds have a really low crest factor, so they work a PA hard when you run them at high levels. I think you were simply asking the PA to produce too much volume, for too long. This coupled with high demand music shortened the life of the drivers. You either have to turn down the PA or get speakers that are much more capable of the demand. I think the DSR's are going to fall victim to the same result. It may take longer, but it will likely still happen. 
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 16, 2018, 10:21:52 PM
Hey Luke,

To my ears, the DSR112 is significantly better sounding, and gets louder than a PRX.

I have long wondered how good the RCF 745's are though .... so much so that I have even considered cruising down to Ohio to compare with Sean's speakers (I live in lower Michigan), so I am super interested in hearing the outcome.

I am looking forward to hearing the outcome.

FWIW, I have found the DSR112's to be quite resilient to my own stupidity (as well as others).  I once ran one (in a pretty large venue) at full limit for an entire set on accident (the gain got bumped on one when it was put up on the stand and it was on the other side of the venue from where my mix position was).  Not only was the speaker not damaged, it sounded quite good even in hard limit.  Pretty impressive.

IMHO, a properly processed powered speaker should be darned near impossible to hurt by running them into limit.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on August 16, 2018, 11:48:40 PM
...... you've blown the HF on both the PRX-712s AND a 15" JBL driver?!?
Same 2408 driver I believe.

Given this statement that the OP made in his first post.. "the music is strictly house music, ive got the bass sorted and just need ear shattering highs"  and this new info I suspect that MI level speakers are simply not up to the job. A typically 1" CD is rated at about 40-50w AES which is up to 160-200w peak but only for very short durations(miliseconds). All of the powered speakers mentioned have more than enough power behind these drivers to vaporize these little voicecoils but we trust that they have limiting in place to protect them, only problem is I doubt the designers ever dreamed these speakers would be subjected to some of the "noise" that passes for music these days.. like sustained synth tones and sweeps at full power. The CD driver in the Art745 is rated at 200w rms/400w peak so it will better handle this program material, it also has a much lower crossover frequency which will make mid/highs more commanding/powerful or in-you-face, something that should be desirable in this case.

Andy, when you go to demo these speakers bring some typical music with you and be sure to high pass all the boxes as they will be used, if you run them full range you will naturally gravitate towards the 15" as they will sound fuller but that is misleading in this case as the low frequency output of the box will not get used and demoing them this way can also mislead you about their midrange clarity.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 17, 2018, 08:52:07 AM
Why does the HF have to be "ear shattering"?  Sounds like a rig, DJ and venue I'd rather avoid.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Kirby Yarbrough on August 17, 2018, 01:06:30 PM
Sounds like a rig, DJ and venue I'd rather avoid.

Perzackly.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 17, 2018, 02:37:05 PM
Why does the HF have to be "ear shattering"?  Sounds like a rig, DJ and venue I'd rather avoid.

i suspect you may not be in the 18-24 year old bracket, i completely understand.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 17, 2018, 02:39:07 PM
i suspect you may not be in the 18-24 year old bracket, i completely understand.
what? what?

j/k lol.

(get off my lawn!)

But really, I hope you are going to figure out WHY you're blowing these drivers. Otherwise, until you fix that problem, it appears that it will keep on happening.......

-Ray
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Steve Garris on August 17, 2018, 02:49:11 PM
While I agree with all of the comments regarding the problem of blowing high frequencies drivers, and not worrying about what the stack looks like, I don't believe 15" two-way speakers are inferior in any way over the same branded 12" two-way. I believe it is a personal preference.

This is from my experience, doing a hundred shows a year on both types of cabinets. I have the PRX and SRX 15's, and have compared them many times against my DSR112's which I use for monitors. I always prefer the sound of the 15's, even when used with sub's, which is most of the time.

Having said that, the OP needs to determine why he's blowing up drivers.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Scott Olewiler on August 17, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
While I agree with all of the comments regarding the problem of blowing high frequencies drivers, and not worrying about what the stack looks like, I don't believe 15" two-way speakers are inferior in any way over the same branded 12" two-way. I believe it is a personal preference.

This is from my experience, doing a hundred shows a year on both types of cabinets. I have the PRX and SRX 15's, and have compared them many times against my DSR112's which I use for monitors. I always prefer the sound of the 15's, even when used with sub's, which is most of the time.

Having said that, the OP needs to determine why he's blowing up drivers.
Exactly. If the OP blew the PRX, he needs to go up a level from the alternatives he is shopping. None of the speakers mentioned are going to survive whatever blew the PRX.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on August 17, 2018, 03:00:05 PM

like i said, they happen to have the dsr112 on the shelf aswell so itll be a 4 way shoot out dsr112 dsr115 prx815w rcf 745a - lucky me!


Speaking as another DJ, my favorite tops for mixing at club levels have 1.4 exit compression drivers over 15s. I know that technically speaking 12s should sound better than 15s over subs, but at high SPLs they just don't when playing what I do most - contemporary hip-hop and reggaetion.


Vocal projection (and at more moderate levels than where we operate) are a plus for 12s and a high priority for most in this forum, but to me that's really n/a.


I've never had the pleasure of mixing on an RCF system, but I would expect the 745s to easily win your shoot-out if you get the opportunity to  really open them up in space. Looking forward to what you find out.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 17, 2018, 03:05:24 PM
  The 1st set of prx went bang after a power issue At the venue; the second went at a gig through reasons unknown.

Today we set up the speakers to be tested; all ran in high pass over a RCF 8003mk2 sub.

1 x dsr112   £789
1x qsc 152   £1144
1x rcf 745a   £1047

The jbl prx815 was not tested due to time constraints

the Yamaha was immediately discarded as it was obvious to all in attendance it was out of its depth, it wasn’t as loud and had severe clarity issues compared with the other 2, perhaps this is reflected in the price?

The decision between the other 2 was extremely difficult; I would say the qsc got louder than the rcf a little but with certain harshness.

The qsc cabinet was more awkward to move and 10kg heavier but seemed more, it took me and the guy in the shop to comfortably put it on top of the pole although I rekon I could have done it but with a struggle.

The RCF art 745a mk4 had a smoother sound quality about it, I felt I could listen to it at loud volumes equal to the qsc but for a lot longer, it didn’t hurt my ears the way the qsc did. But I like the qsc hurt my ears, it was loud very loud and that was what I was looking, something loud that I could dial back.

I struggled with this dilemma for a little while, In the end I went for a better smoother sound quality of the rcf, it was also cheaper and I felt more comfortable moving it on my own due to the 10kg saving.

I ad every intention of coming home with a 12/15” Yamaha dsr as the price difference was minimal and the extra payment on top of the prx palatable.

This Quickly became a non starter and a further £700 was handed over for the part exchange on top of the prx.

Ill report back 27 august when Ive had them out in the wild, hopefully that 4” voice coil on the compression driver will see me through many more years of graft.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on August 17, 2018, 03:16:51 PM

Ill report back 27 august when Ive had them out in the wild...

Thanks for reporting back, and yes please continue to do so. We don't hear from DJs all that often in this forum.

Didn't know QSCs would be included, but I'm not surprised that you detected harshness when they were pushed.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Steve Garris on August 17, 2018, 03:21:18 PM
Nothing better than a direct comparison, provided all things are equal. Good job.

Funny thing is, there are many here who don't like the looks of the RCF box you purchased! I would have to hear them myself, but most reviews are highly positive regarding the sound quality and SPL.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 17, 2018, 04:04:27 PM
  The 1st set of prx went bang after a power issue At the venue; the second went at a gig through reasons unknown.

Today we set up the speakers to be tested; all ran in high pass over a RCF 8003mk2 sub.

1 x dsr112   £789
1x qsc 152   £1144
1x rcf 745a   £1047

The jbl prx815 was not tested due to time constraints

the Yamaha was immediately discarded as it was obvious to all in attendance it was out of its depth, it wasn’t as loud and had severe clarity issues compared with the other 2, perhaps this is reflected in the price?

The decision between the other 2 was extremely difficult; I would say the qsc got louder than the rcf a little but with certain harshness.

The qsc cabinet was more awkward to move and 10kg heavier but seemed more, it took me and the guy in the shop to comfortably put it on top of the pole although I rekon I could have done it but with a struggle.

The RCF art 745a mk4 had a smoother sound quality about it, I felt I could listen to it at loud volumes equal to the qsc but for a lot longer, it didn’t hurt my ears the way the qsc did. But I like the qsc hurt my ears, it was loud very loud and that was what I was looking, something loud that I could dial back.

I struggled with this dilemma for a little while, In the end I went for a better smoother sound quality of the rcf, it was also cheaper and I felt more comfortable moving it on my own due to the 10kg saving.

I ad every intention of coming home with a 12/15” Yamaha dsr as the price difference was minimal and the extra payment on top of the prx palatable.

This Quickly became a non starter and a further £700 was handed over for the part exchange on top of the prx.

Ill report back 27 august when Ive had them out in the wild, hopefully that 4” voice coil on the compression driver will see me through many more years of graft.
I have DSR112 AND QSC KW115 as well as KW153.

The KW115 sound lime a kazoo compared to the DSR.  The DSR can almost keep up with the three way.

Not sure why we have such a gap.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 17, 2018, 04:07:31 PM
I have DSR112 AND QSC KW115 as well as KW153.

The KW115 sound lime a kazoo compared to the DSR.  The DSR can almost keep up with the three way.

Not sure why we have such a gap.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
I meant 152's. Looking forward to your report.

I think you were always leaning to the RCF,  which I have not heard however most anything RCF I have run has been very good.  There is nothing wrong with getting what you wanted.



Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 17, 2018, 04:12:56 PM
Your impression of the Yamaha HF is 100% opposite of the experiences posted here.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Scott Olewiler on August 17, 2018, 04:14:20 PM
  The 1st set of prx went bang after a power issue At the venue; the second went at a gig through reasons unknown.

Today we set up the speakers to be tested; all ran in high pass over a RCF 8003mk2 sub.

1 x dsr112   £789
1x qsc 152   £1144
1x rcf 745a   £1047

The jbl prx815 was not tested due to time constraints

the Yamaha was immediately discarded as it was obvious to all in attendance it was out of its depth, it wasn’t as loud and had severe clarity issues compared with the other 2, perhaps this is reflected in the price?

The decision between the other 2 was extremely difficult; I would say the qsc got louder than the rcf a little but with certain harshness.

The qsc cabinet was more awkward to move and 10kg heavier but seemed more, it took me and the guy in the shop to comfortably put it on top of the pole although I rekon I could have done it but with a struggle.

The RCF art 745a mk4 had a smoother sound quality about it, I felt I could listen to it at loud volumes equal to the qsc but for a lot longer, it didn’t hurt my ears the way the qsc did. But I like the qsc hurt my ears, it was loud very loud and that was what I was looking, something loud that I could dial back.

I struggled with this dilemma for a little while, In the end I went for a better smoother sound quality of the rcf, it was also cheaper and I felt more comfortable moving it on my own due to the 10kg saving.

I ad every intention of coming home with a 12/15” Yamaha dsr as the price difference was minimal and the extra payment on top of the prx palatable.

This Quickly became a non starter and a further £700 was handed over for the part exchange on top of the prx.

Ill report back 27 august when Ive had them out in the wild, hopefully that 4” voice coil on the compression driver will see me through many more years of graft.
Andy,

Please bear in mind that you cannot simply unplug one speaker and plug another in to compare. Some speakers require more input to reach the same SPL, the DSR being one of them. Sometimes to accurately compare tops you need to dial the sub back a bit  and push the source output up to reach the same overall SPL for a proper test.

And you may be the first person ever on this professional forum to state that the DSR has clarity issues. I think I speak for every DSR owner on here to say that statement confounds me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Greg Harwood on August 17, 2018, 04:40:57 PM
  The 1st set of prx went bang after a power issue At the venue; the second went at a gig through reasons unknown.

Today we set up the speakers to be tested; all ran in high pass over a RCF 8003mk2 sub.

1 x dsr112   £789
1x qsc 152   £1144
1x rcf 745a   £1047

The jbl prx815 was not tested due to time constraints

the Yamaha was immediately discarded as it was obvious to all in attendance it was out of its depth, it wasn’t as loud and had severe clarity issues compared with the other 2, perhaps this is reflected in the price?

The decision between the other 2 was extremely difficult; I would say the qsc got louder than the rcf a little but with certain harshness.

The qsc cabinet was more awkward to move and 10kg heavier but seemed more, it took me and the guy in the shop to comfortably put it on top of the pole although I rekon I could have done it but with a struggle.

The RCF art 745a mk4 had a smoother sound quality about it, I felt I could listen to it at loud volumes equal to the qsc but for a lot longer, it didn’t hurt my ears the way the qsc did. But I like the qsc hurt my ears, it was loud very loud and that was what I was looking, something loud that I could dial back.

I struggled with this dilemma for a little while, In the end I went for a better smoother sound quality of the rcf, it was also cheaper and I felt more comfortable moving it on my own due to the 10kg saving.

I ad every intention of coming home with a 12/15” Yamaha dsr as the price difference was minimal and the extra payment on top of the prx palatable.

This Quickly became a non starter and a further £700 was handed over for the part exchange on top of the prx.

Ill report back 27 august when Ive had them out in the wild, hopefully that 4” voice coil on the compression driver will see me through many more years of graft.

Something must have been wrong with the DSR112.  Those speakers get crazy loud and stay clean and clear.  I have 6 of them and have never been disappointed.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on August 17, 2018, 08:27:52 PM
The decision between the other 2 was extremely difficult; I would say the qsc got louder than the rcf a little but with certain harshness.

The RCF art 745a mk4 had a smoother sound quality about it, I felt I could listen to it at loud volumes equal to the qsc but for a lot longer, it didn’t hurt my ears the way the qsc did. But I like the qsc hurt my ears, it was loud very loud and that was what I was looking, something loud that I could dial back.

I struggled with this dilemma for a little while, In the end I went for a better smoother sound quality of the rcf, it was also cheaper and I felt more comfortable moving it on my own due to the 10kg saving.

IME a "harsh" speakers tends to sound louder because of the distortion, even at the same SPL. Some people like that, or at least are so used to it that it doesn't sound loud enough if the audio is clear of distortion.

I highly doubt that the QSC is louder than the RCF, if measured objectively at a reasonable, specified level of THD.

Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Gordon Brinton on August 17, 2018, 09:23:56 PM
...I hope you are going to figure out WHY you're blowing these drivers. Otherwise, until you fix that problem, it appears that it will keep on happening.......

If he is anything like the local dj's in my area, it is due to distortion from cheap mixers at high volume. I believe distorted music generates more heat than clean music, especially with busy edm.

Apparently many dj's have trouble noticing distortion when it occurs because they spend most of their time behind the speakers, hearing only monitors.

OP, Good luck with the new boxes.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 17, 2018, 09:47:59 PM
I have DSR112 AND QSC KW115 as well as KW153.

The KW115 sound lime a kazoo compared to the DSR.  The DSR can almost keep up with the three way.

Not sure why we have such a gap.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
Hey Scott,

I have a neighbor a few doors down that has a KW153 over KW181 rig.  I agree with your assessment.  The DSR112 nearly keeps up with the much larger 3 way speaker when over subs and crossed over at around 90hz.  Anyone who owns DSR's and other speakers can attest to how loud they can get and stay clear.

Having said this, I have never heard a bad thing said about the sound quality of the RCF745a.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: andy foster on August 18, 2018, 08:48:04 AM
hi folks,

Let me be clear, There was absolutley nothing wrong with the yamaha clarity, i listened to this first and it was fine.

when i say the yamaha had clarity issues..... this became apparent up against the rcf, and the yamaha was dropped from the test firly quickly as it appeared it was in the wrong race altogether as the price would suggest  perhaps.

so again, yes the yamaha is a good loud clear speaker, but not as good as the rcf in any department.

yes im a dj, how dissapointing haha, but i am also a small sound and light company of around 5 years. I started out with budget gear and gradually progressed up to what you see now.

I dont pretend to be an expert but i do know what im listening to and what sounds good or not when house music is being belted through a system.

the choice was extremely tuff, as i said i also like asthetics  in my rigs, when i put them up i like the customer to like what he sees before i even turn it on.

so the choice was even tuffer, the qsc was hitting hard at max volume and i knew it would look best ontop of my subs, but in the end i went for the much lighter (clever carry handles) slightly cheaper but oh so ugly RCF.

Now there home i am learning to love my new babys with the face only a mother could love, all things said i have made the right choice for me.

if i come back at the end of august (2 gigs later) with 2 blown rcf tweeters then i willl fall on my "DJ" sword and own up!
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 18, 2018, 02:53:32 PM
hi folks,

Let me be clear, There was absolutley nothing wrong with the yamaha clarity, i listened to this first and it was fine.

when i say the yamaha had clarity issues..... this became apparent up against the rcf, and the yamaha was dropped from the test firly quickly as it appeared it was in the wrong race altogether as the price would suggest  perhaps.

so again, yes the yamaha is a good loud clear speaker, but not as good as the rcf in any department.

yes im a dj, how dissapointing haha, but i am also a small sound and light company of around 5 years. I started out with budget gear and gradually progressed up to what you see now.

I dont pretend to be an expert but i do know what im listening to and what sounds good or not when house music is being belted through a system.

the choice was extremely tuff, as i said i also like asthetics  in my rigs, when i put them up i like the customer to like what he sees before i even turn it on.

so the choice was even tuffer, the qsc was hitting hard at max volume and i knew it would look best ontop of my subs, but in the end i went for the much lighter (clever carry handles) slightly cheaper but oh so ugly RCF.

Now there home i am learning to love my new babys with the face only a mother could love, all things said i have made the right choice for me.

if i come back at the end of august (2 gigs later) with 2 blown rcf tweeters then i willl fall on my "DJ" sword and own up!
Hey Andy,

If you are doing DJ work, then I suspect that the RCF's with the much much better bottom end will serve your needs better (not to mention how silly light they are).  RCF has long been known for their smooth top end as well..... QSC K/KW ..... not so much.

I envy your rig.  Very nice indeed.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Tim Hite on August 18, 2018, 02:59:03 PM
If I were you, I'd be looking at the RCF NXL-24a. You'll end up with a really fantastic rig. For a few bucks less you can get into the RCF NX-32 or NX-45, which is a wood box version of the ART boxes with big drivers.

RCF customer service and support has been great for me. They turn gear around in under a week and have been impressively responsive.



currently have 2 jbl prx815w tops over 4 rcf 8003 mk2 subs, and it was quite the system

how ever a tweeter has blown and i need replacments quick, cant wait for warranty repair.

my first choice would be jbl srx15p but these are not available.

what is ready to collect at shop:

yamaha dsr 115 136db 1400w £900
ART 745-A MK4  133db 1300w £1100 (guy in shop swears this is the best option)
QSC equivalent

as these will always run in high pass the descision is not so easily made, it is the specs on the compression drivers that has got me thinking. rcf is 1.4" with a 4" voice coil vs the yamaha 2" voice coil 1" throat.

on the bear face of the figures and description i just do not understand which would be the best choice.

the music is strictly house music, ive got the bass sorted and just need ear shattering highs that i can dial back to suit and leave some headroom.

buying in next couple of days, desperate for help

ps, should i insist on the srx15p no matter what?!
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Tim Hite on August 18, 2018, 03:05:51 PM
There's an RCF HD box with the same drivers at the ART but with a full grille on the front. They were on display at InfoComm. Looks are much improved. There are also NX line boxes out with upgraded drivers, wood cabinets and full grille.

Nothing better than a direct comparison, provided all things are equal. Good job.

Funny thing is, there are many here who don't like the looks of the RCF box you purchased! I would have to hear them myself, but most reviews are highly positive regarding the sound quality and SPL.
Title: Re: RCF ART 745-A MK4 or yamaha dsr115 situation please read urgent
Post by: Gordon Brinton on August 20, 2018, 04:18:30 AM
Am I missing something or does the 745-A MK4 "not" have a high pass filter built in?

Well, that sucks. I was considering it as an upgrade, but my powered subs don't have high-pass out either. Doh!