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Title: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 06, 2017, 10:05:58 PM
Hey Folks,

Thanks for taking the time to read this.  For some background, I'm a sound guy, not a lighting guy.  Not yet anyway, unless you count some high-school musical experience with a follow spot.  When my boss left us suddenly and I started building up my own rig I picked up a few cheap LED fixtures not really knowing what I was looking at.  Here I am five years later, still in the lounge level as a weekend warrior, but my sound rig has expanded, my gigs are getting larger in scale, and yet I can't light a stage to save the universe. (Pun intended?).  I've been doing some self education on this site and many others, and I'm starting to familiarize myself with all the terminology and different units of measure for lighting fixtures (just when I realized I can't trust audio spec sheets, here I am trying to compare lighting spec sheets!).  I'm paying close attention to what the other small-providers in my area are offering.

I'm trying to keep everything simple and compact.  Nothing flown at this time and I'm OK with that.  However, if that prevents me from getting the results I need, feel free to be my wake up call.  I have succeeded so far with my PA being one-person manageable, but I'm struggling with lighting as the lighting designs I seem to like (and required infrastructure to effectively pull it off) would take up more space than I can effectively store, transport or set up. 

I don't know if truss is going to be in my future; I'm thinking four t-bar tripods, one at each front corner for front wash, and two in the rear for the fun part.  If I can fit the lights (prewired) inside some box truss, that could save enough storage/pack space that I might be able to pull off 20-30' of it on some ST-132 type stands behind the band, and use it for totems when that's not practical.  Anyone currently doing something similar?

So, the compromise begins and I'm trying to begin a budget for some minimal but effective and flexible fixtures to provide basic stage lighting that I can run myself while also doing sound (FOH & Monitors) that will hold the audience's focus.  Mostly static lights, but I'd light to do some programming as I get more comfortable. 

Most of my work is with bands at this point, and the stages are indoors and out, ranging from 10-30' wide and 12-24' deep, with up to 11 musicians on stage at a time.  Trim heights will be 13' off the ground (for low stages) or off the deck if it's taller.  I like my ST-132's for my PA and would buy more.  I'm hoping to find some fixtures I could "grow into" as I learn and experiment that won't completely break the bank (or back, or go obsolete).  Simple right?  haha. 

I do not intend to be a full-time lighting supplier anytime soon, I'm OK taking this slow but I do need to address my front lighting deficiencies before next spring.  Some of the events I've worked at recently had staging and lighting provided by some local AV companies and I've really come to appreciate some solid front wash when done effectively.  Those gigs used Lekos, and darn did they look sharp. (more puns)  I always wrote off non-LED fixtures in my mind for fear of heat (burning myself during load out)/power (or lack thereof)/weight (for my back), but the more I read about LED's and warm-whites, the more I realize that might just be what I need.

I own 8 of the ADJ Dots Par RGB 36w COB LED fixtures (great uplights, work OK for lighting the band from behind with a par-can style homogenized beam for a rock and roll look, but not loving them as front lights due to the tricolour limitations I initially ignored), 4-way optical DMX splitter, and an Art-net DMX node with WAP, iPad and Luminair App.  The rest of my stuff will probably be sold off as party toys since it really doesn't hold up. I'm trying to avoid that happening again (buy once, cry once).

Ideas: My first thought was LED wash lights, RGBAW+UV for some flexibility, IP65 for the seasonal outdoor shows I do since they'd be on ST-132's or similar, lighting the stage from the front at either side. (45 up and 45 out would be the goal). Thinking something like the Elation Sixpar 200 IP or 300 IP, two per side. Also considering the offerings from Chauvet's Colorado line (what others are providing in my area now).  Those are all in the range of 900-1500 CAD retail each but they'd pack small and be very flexible as I increase inventory (move to rear wash).

However, for a fraction of the price (500 CAD retail each), I could pick up some ETC Source 4 Jr Zoom lekos and have two per side that could light most stages I work on if I'm doing my beam angle math right.  Not IP65, but perhaps the heat will evaporate a slight drizzle?  Haven't had a downpour yet, but I'm in a rainforest, and my mains all have UndercoverNYC FS/W weatherproof covers, so that part is ready.  Flying solo I wouldn't have much time to react if the weather turns on me quickly.  I guess it depends where I can mount the stands but the manual zoom would allow me to make quick adjustments at set-up time.  Downside of these is that they would require more power than equivalent brightness LED's, some DMX dimmers (added cost), and they don't pack particularly small. 

Other ideas I've had include blinders (used for front wash at first, but could be moved to blinder duty later as I add inventory).  thinking the Chauvet Strike 1 or similar, retails around $1.5k CAD each. Maybe one per side on a tripod. Kind of a one-trick pony, but blinders are quite popular around here.  I don't know how well they would control the beam, but that's a trade off. Anyone been silly enough to experiment like this or would the big-boys just scoff at me?

I've also entertained something like the Rogue 1 wash, two per side on a tripod (TJ I read all your posts here and elsewhere) but I'm hesitant to get into movers since I don't really have the control experience to utilize them properly yet.  Typical retail around 1.5K CAD it seems, but I'd need some road cases for those, and then there's the weather concerns for outdoor shows.  The upside of those being flexibility, brightness, and if the tripods aren't ideally located I don't have to climb a ladder to zoom or aim them.  They'd certainly "look" pro, which might help justify some higher rates.

I'm sure there's more out there, and I'm all ears.

Power: On the small gigs where I only have 1-2 20A circuits to power everything from, my existing Dotz Pars could do the front wash duties for now unless I replace them altogether with something like a Chauvet slimmer pro hex (400 cad retail each but not IP65), so that leaves me with two 20A circuits on my existing distro that I could set aside for lighting duties on the larger gigs where I'm falling flat. 

Business: (Because Ray will ask).  I'm losing out on some gigs because I can't provide a basic stage wash along with audio.  Perhaps I can make some friends with the local lighting suppliers and work together (smartest thing I've said so far) but I don't like relying on others all of the time so need to be somewhat self-sufficient. 

For the number of uses I would get out of these on the short-term, there would be no reasonable directly-measurable ROI for anything I have in mind.  However, I need to start somewhere, and my pride keeps me from wanting to drop money on more no-name toys when I take the presentation of my equipment as seriously as I do.  My day job affords me a flexible budget for now, but once I'm "set up" I intend to move into this full time again which will put the spending to a halt and I want to be reasonably geared up by then.

Basically, I'm hoping to increase the quality of my productions to elevate my company's standing and allow me to compete in my market.  Lights might end up being my "freebie to land the gig" for now until I'm better at it, but you can't practice without the tools.  Everything in my audio rig has been treated with the "buy once cry once" attitude, and it has treated me well. 


Thanks to all who provide insight for me.  I can't put into words how invaluable this forum has been to me over the last few years.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: John Fruits on September 07, 2017, 08:12:14 AM
I think the first thing to do is take care of the front lighting.  Yes, incandescent S4's look great, but require lots of infrastructure.  Power, dimmers or dimmer packs, lots of heavy cable, large size, multiple lens tubes....the list goes on.  Oh yeah, the S4 juniors are limited to 575 watts and aren't really that much cheaper or smaller.  Then there are LED versions, at much higher prices.  There are white light only ones (Chauvet even has an IP rated warm white one) and color ones. 
I understand the charm of the itty-bitty hotbox/puck/slimpar fixtures but they are fixed beam spread.
For front lighting using two fixtures on each side I would look at zoom fixtures.
The Phillips Showline Par 155 used to be the best one but it is a manual zoom.
Then there is the Martin Rush Par 2, with motorized zoom.
The hot ticket right now seems to be the Elation FUZE series, and some are IP rated. 
http://www.elationlighting.com/fuze-series
With lighting support at the corner of the stage you would want a wider wash on the near side and a tighter beam on the far side. 
As far as blinders, one history claims that The Who was the first big act to use them.  5K fresnels upstage behind the band.
http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/gear/pa/lighting.html
In addition to the Chauvet Strike, also take a look at the Elation DTW units, the 350 and the 700 are also IP rated.  Good luck with your search.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 07, 2017, 10:39:35 AM
Hi Jeremy,

There are a number of ways you can go about this depending on what you need right now and what can wait, and where the money should be spent.  The nice thing about lighting is that there is no "set" way of doing things.  While some techniques are more industry-standard than others, it's easier to shoehorn things on lighting than it is for sound, at least in my experience.

The first thing you'll need to settle on is a controller.  This is a mandatory purchase and I think you're going to want to tackle this now - Luminair has numerous limitations, especially for moving lights.  As you might already know, controllers currently come in two flavors - a standard "hardware" console and those that run on a PC or laptop, with or without a "wing" to give some hands-on control.  Martin's M-PC with an M-Touch is one of the cheapest ways to get a capable control solution that can grow with you.  ChamSys's MagicQ is another popular software controller, though the cost of their wings and accessories is a little bit higher.  I used MagicQ PC for nearly a decade before growing to a dedicated hardware console.  Decent hardware boards will set you back several thousand, so a buy once cry once kind of thing, but if done right it'll last you a long while.  You just have to decided how much of your budget you want to allocate to a board.  Personally, I find it better allocation of money to buy a board you can grow into versus buying fixtures you can grow into. 

Regarding everything else, you have a multitude of options with reasonable flexibility.  I've done pre-rigged and pre-hung truss before.  It can definitely save time if done correctly, but at the same time box truss can be a bit much for a single operator to handle if you try anything much beyond a totem.  Transportation logistics also increase when moving carts of box truss.  ST-132s, T-bars, and I-beam style truss is much more manageable at least to me, plus you can always grow to box truss if needed.

Fixtures are another variable that can really be all over the place.  I agree with John that you need to get your front wash taken care of first.  I personally do my washes with halogen pars and supplement as needed with my 700w discharge CMY moving washes.  Getting back to what you're looking for, it's really a case of you get what you pay for.  The cost of LED Pars is all over the spectrum.  In my personal opinion, front wash acceptable LED lights don't really run under $500/ea. and go up from there.  This would be your Elation SixPar and Fuze Series as well as the Chauvet Colorado Solo Series and similar.  The questions is...is the higher cost of even these types of fixtures really worth it when compared to a conventional fixture or a more budget option such as a SlimPar Pro?  For what it's worth I've never had a major problem with non-IP-65 fixtures in rain, but one storm can change that and everyone is different.  If outdoors is a regular thing I'd consider it, but for 2-2.5 the price of a non-IP-65 equivalent?  Tough choice, and one I'll need to make sooner or later when I buy a few dozen of the latest-generation LED Pars...  Granted they should last longer as they're sealed for dust as well, but with the pace this market keeps evolving I'm not sure I'd want to sign up to a fixture purchase that'll take a few seasons to make back.  If you business model supports it then go for it, otherwise sometimes being cheap and minimal is the best idea from a business perspective.  Instead, spend the cash on something with more longevity to it such as a console.  Flip side, the S4s, S4 Pars, and the like aren't going anywhere this decade.  That's a more future-proof purchase right now versus the latest and greatest LED...which will be superseded next year by something "better".  Just my opinion though.   

Zoom is nice to have as well but for a little bit more you can have a moving wash, which to me has been a much more useful tool.  At least with the direction my rig continues to evolve - go cheap with the generic eye-candy Pars, get something decent (either halogen or higher end LED) for overall front wash and strong facial light, and add a few moving zoomable washes for your "specials" and other effects.  Just remember that while LED is usually lower wattage than halogen, it's not negligible!  Best of luck!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Nate Zifra on September 07, 2017, 12:48:51 PM
Glad to see some activity again here on the lighting forum!

As a mostly single operator, I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I love good lighting, it makes such a difference.  However, what I find is the setup and tear down times it adds doesn't always allow for what I am able to setup.  As a result, I have truss that is rarely used, and some fixtures that remain in the trailer. 

What always comes out of the trailer is front lighting.  I use the warm white/cold white Cob fixtures, a pair per side.  They are perfect for front lighting.  The only complaint I get is typically from the performers, as they are very bright when looking directly at them.  I may look into some type of diffuser for them, but I digress.  I have no complaints, and can choose to operate them on dmx for dimming or blackout, or just standalone in a pinch.  They also make excellent work lights for cleaning up in the dark. 

In place of the truss up stage, I find it the quickest to have LED pars prewired on t-bars.  Usually I use two tbars, but sometimes three total if it is a wider stage.  While pars only can seem boring, I think chases are often overlooked by a lot of beginners.  Most seem to go for the color wash fade, but some simple varying chases with each par dimming (pulsing) or completely on/off can add a lot of movement to your static lights.  Program some of these chases, use a program that allows you to change the speed, and maybe add some bump buttons for all on, or full white for some some quasi blinder action.  You can also vary your chases by using different colors instead of having all the pars the same color. 

My T-bars for upstage have 4 prewired LED Pars, and then for those events I can use haze, I have some small 60 watt moving head spots I attach, two per T-bar.  It doesn't take too long to throw them up, add power and dmx. 

To start, I agree with what was mentioned.  Get your front lighting sorted first, find a controller like M-Touch that lets you expand to the future.  For now, continue to use your COB's for upstage, but consider programing some chases.  Then you can decide how you want to proceed, you could expand your existing inventory of Cobs for larger stages, and look into added some portable movers.

Hope my experience helps you.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 07, 2017, 08:08:42 PM
I think the first thing to do is take care of the front lighting.  Yes, incandescent S4's look great, but require lots of infrastructure.  Power, dimmers or dimmer packs, lots of heavy cable, large size, multiple lens tubes....the list goes on.  Oh yeah, the S4 juniors are limited to 575 watts and aren't really that much cheaper or smaller.  Then there are LED versions, at much higher prices.  There are white light only ones (Chauvet even has an IP rated warm white one) and color ones. 
I understand the charm of the itty-bitty hotbox/puck/slimpar fixtures but they are fixed beam spread.
For front lighting using two fixtures on each side I would look at zoom fixtures.
The Phillips Showline Par 155 used to be the best one but it is a manual zoom.
Then there is the Martin Rush Par 2, with motorized zoom.
The hot ticket right now seems to be the Elation FUZE series, and some are IP rated. 
http://www.elationlighting.com/fuze-series (http://www.elationlighting.com/fuze-series)
With lighting support at the corner of the stage you would want a wider wash on the near side and a tighter beam on the far side. 
As far as blinders, one history claims that The Who was the first big act to use them.  5K fresnels upstage behind the band.
http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/gear/pa/lighting.html (http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/gear/pa/lighting.html)
In addition to the Chauvet Strike, also take a look at the Elation DTW units, the 350 and the 700 are also IP rated.  Good luck with your search.


Thanks for the reply John!  I had looked at almost every fixture you've mentioned in my search (except the Phillips).  I think 575w would be all I could afford (power wise) but having no hands on experience with Lekos i had not considered the lenses etc.  Sounds like a lot of infrastructure (space i don't really have).  I just wish there were more LED fixtures with a known effectiveness like the S4's that had some solid staying power.  Since this will be a long term investment, it makes sense to me to avoid gimmicky products and try for "timeless" fixtures.


I'll stick to (motorized) zoom fixtures for the convenience/flexibility; the Fuze series did intrigue me.  I do like the look of a COB fixture more than a multi-LED looking fixture, hence my inventory of Dotz Pars.  I just wish they had more effective whites and ambers (the ADJ's).


Thanks for the link on The Who, that'll be an interesting read!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 07, 2017, 08:26:22 PM
Hi Jeremy,

There are a number of ways you can go about this depending on what you need right now and what can wait, and where the money should be spent.  The nice thing about lighting is that there is no "set" way of doing things.  While some techniques are more industry-standard than others, it's easier to shoehorn things on lighting than it is for sound, at least in my experience.

The first thing you'll need to settle on is a controller.  This is a mandatory purchase and I think you're going to want to tackle this now - Luminair has numerous limitations, especially for moving lights.  As you might already know, controllers currently come in two flavors - a standard "hardware" console and those that run on a PC or laptop, with or without a "wing" to give some hands-on control.  Martin's M-PC with an M-Touch is one of the cheapest ways to get a capable control solution that can grow with you.  ChamSys's MagicQ is another popular software controller, though the cost of their wings and accessories is a little bit higher.  I used MagicQ PC for nearly a decade before growing to a dedicated hardware console.  Decent hardware boards will set you back several thousand, so a buy once cry once kind of thing, but if done right it'll last you a long while.  You just have to decided how much of your budget you want to allocate to a board.  Personally, I find it better allocation of money to buy a board you can grow into versus buying fixtures you can grow into. 

Regarding everything else, you have a multitude of options with reasonable flexibility.  I've done pre-rigged and pre-hung truss before.  It can definitely save time if done correctly, but at the same time box truss can be a bit much for a single operator to handle if you try anything much beyond a totem.  Transportation logistics also increase when moving carts of box truss.  ST-132s, T-bars, and I-beam style truss is much more manageable at least to me, plus you can always grow to box truss if needed.

Fixtures are another variable that can really be all over the place.  I agree with John that you need to get your front wash taken care of first.  I personally do my washes with halogen pars and supplement as needed with my 700w discharge CMY moving washes.  Getting back to what you're looking for, it's really a case of you get what you pay for.  The cost of LED Pars is all over the spectrum.  In my personal opinion, front wash acceptable LED lights don't really run under $500/ea. and go up from there.  This would be your Elation SixPar and Fuze Series as well as the Chauvet Colorado Solo Series and similar.  The questions is...is the higher cost of even these types of fixtures really worth it when compared to a conventional fixture or a more budget option such as a SlimPar Pro?  For what it's worth I've never had a major problem with non-IP-65 fixtures in rain, but one storm can change that and everyone is different.  If outdoors is a regular thing I'd consider it, but for 2-2.5 the price of a non-IP-65 equivalent?  Tough choice, and one I'll need to make sooner or later when I buy a few dozen of the latest-generation LED Pars...  Granted they should last longer as they're sealed for dust as well, but with the pace this market keeps evolving I'm not sure I'd want to sign up to a fixture purchase that'll take a few seasons to make back.  If you business model supports it then go for it, otherwise sometimes being cheap and minimal is the best idea from a business perspective.  Instead, spend the cash on something with more longevity to it such as a console.  Flip side, the S4s, S4 Pars, and the like aren't going anywhere this decade.  That's a more future-proof purchase right now versus the latest and greatest LED...which will be superseded next year by something "better".  Just my opinion though.   

Zoom is nice to have as well but for a little bit more you can have a moving wash, which to me has been a much more useful tool.  At least with the direction my rig continues to evolve - go cheap with the generic eye-candy Pars, get something decent (either halogen or higher end LED) for overall front wash and strong facial light, and add a few moving zoomable washes for your "specials" and other effects.  Just remember that while LED is usually lower wattage than halogen, it's not negligible!  Best of luck!


I was hoping you'd chime in Jeff.  I've learned a lot from your posts on here.  Having no movers, i hadn't yet run into the limitations on Luminair so that's good to know upfront.  I didn't mention it, but i do own a Chauvet Obey 40, but I'll do some more research on the consoles you've suggested.  I like faders and knobs over touchscreens most days, so I can see where having my own controller (even if i cross rent fixtures occasionally) would be helpful so I'm familiar with the layout/programming.


I could see Truss getting out of hand quickly for a one-person operation, good to know it's not a mandatory thing.  I like the look of staggered height totems behind the band, but really works best with some good moving spots on top (which i don't have).  I currently keep my Dotz Pars pre-wired on t-bars (daisy chain power and DMX with a terminator at the end) and it works pretty well but it still tough to transport safely.  They are too long to fit in any of my road cases and although the fixtures have rubber feet on them, it doesn't sit solidly and has to sit on top of everything else in the van.  Might start getting serious about rigging up some suspension points in the the roof of the van. My hope was truss could do some "protecting" too, but the added weight and complexity of making sure the mounting works for stored versus gigging configurations seems to be asking too much. 


LED pars ARE all over the place.  Man, talk about paralysis by analysis.  The cheaper they are, the more scant they are with photometric data.  Makes comparison hard without a demo or a reliable user review, especially with the typically short lifecycle of these products.  I don't do a lot of outdoor gigs now, but there are a lot in my area and once this is my full-time thing again I will be faced with surprise showers.  Good to know about your experiences, but I may just play it safe and go IP65 anyway.  *sigh* it's only money right?  Front wash will get regular use, so the ROI once up and running should be reasonable.  Should be.... that's why i kept going back to the idea of conventional lighting.  Most bang (lumens) for your buck, excellent staying power.  I know they'll look good on camera and people's faces.  Speaking generally of course, but it seems like I can get similar output from LED fixtures at a third the wattage of conventional, at triple the cost. 


Moving zoom wash makes a lot of sense to me, but also feels a little gimmicky (well sorry, spot would be more gimmicky) for me to buy four now with no other intelligent lighting and some moderately bright upstage fixtures....?  I can see the value and flexibility though.  Maybe gimmicky isn't the right word.  I worked in an audio/lighting repair shop and we worked on a lot of dusty chinese movers from clubs that were always having issues. More moving parts, more maintenance, more careful packing... still gotta think more on that.


Thanks for taking the time.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 07, 2017, 08:34:35 PM
Glad to see some activity again here on the lighting forum!

As a mostly single operator, I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I love good lighting, it makes such a difference.  However, what I find is the setup and tear down times it adds doesn't always allow for what I am able to setup.  As a result, I have truss that is rarely used, and some fixtures that remain in the trailer. 

What always comes out of the trailer is front lighting.  I use the warm white/cold white Cob fixtures, a pair per side.  They are perfect for front lighting.  The only complaint I get is typically from the performers, as they are very bright when looking directly at them.  I may look into some type of diffuser for them, but I digress.  I have no complaints, and can choose to operate them on dmx for dimming or blackout, or just standalone in a pinch.  They also make excellent work lights for cleaning up in the dark. 

In place of the truss up stage, I find it the quickest to have LED pars prewired on t-bars.  Usually I use two tbars, but sometimes three total if it is a wider stage.  While pars only can seem boring, I think chases are often overlooked by a lot of beginners.  Most seem to go for the color wash fade, but some simple varying chases with each par dimming (pulsing) or completely on/off can add a lot of movement to your static lights.  Program some of these chases, use a program that allows you to change the speed, and maybe add some bump buttons for all on, or full white for some some quasi blinder action.  You can also vary your chases by using different colors instead of having all the pars the same color. 

My T-bars for upstage have 4 prewired LED Pars, and then for those events I can use haze, I have some small 60 watt moving head spots I attach, two per T-bar.  It doesn't take too long to throw them up, add power and dmx. 

To start, I agree with what was mentioned.  Get your front lighting sorted first, find a controller like M-Touch that lets you expand to the future.  For now, continue to use your COB's for upstage, but consider programing some chases.  Then you can decide how you want to proceed, you could expand your existing inventory of Cobs for larger stages, and look into added some portable movers.

Hope my experience helps you.


Thanks for the input Nate!  As a single operator, your experiences are extremely valuable to me.  I was afraid of exactly what you describe, truss that collects dust.  I already struggle with setup time with my basic lighting and (not so basic) audio rig.  Which COB fixtures are you using?  Regarding the complaints about brightness, how much higher than head level do you typically mount them? 


Yes worklights for load out !  Now we're talking multi-use!  Been there, done that, killed the van battery with headlights once while wrapping cables.  Try finding someone to give you a jump start in the middle of nowhere at 3am!  haha, I digress.


A third t-bar of ADJ Dotz Pars wouldn't set me back terribly and would add to their flexibility as uplights for larger corporate spaces.  I'll definitely play around with chases more.  This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to hear.  I've seen a lot of "movement" come from fixed lights that were well-programmed so I'll experiment more with that and my existing inventory.


Thanks for the thoughts!


Just writing out my original post was a good exercise in clarifying a lot of the thoughts and emotions I had bouncing around in my head.  It's good to get some supportive feedback that I'm thinking in the right direction.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: John Fruits on September 07, 2017, 09:17:46 PM
Another thought for going with tungsten lighting for your front light.  Instead of using ERS (leko) spots, go with the classic fresnel.  In the US the frequent street price for the Altman 65Q is right at $50.  Gives you adjustable beam spread, no framing shutters like an ERS but you can use barndoors.  You can also use gels, for instance a very light cool from one side and a very light warm from the other.  That gives more depth. 
EDIT: Oh yeah that price is for used. 
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 07, 2017, 09:46:53 PM

I was hoping you'd chime in Jeff.  I've learned a lot from your posts on here.  Having no movers, i hadn't yet run into the limitations on Luminair so that's good to know upfront.  I didn't mention it, but i do own a Chauvet Obey 40, but I'll do some more research on the consoles you've suggested.  I like faders and knobs over touchscreens most days, so I can see where having my own controller (even if i cross rent fixtures occasionally) would be helpful so I'm familiar with the layout/programming.

Glad I've been able to help you!  Luminair is one of those products that has a great niche with many happy users, several of which are frequent posters here.  Like everything though, it has its limits, and unfortunately once you get past the basic bar or small club rig you hit them pretty quickly.  Unfortunately I wouldn't peg your Obey 40 any higher...  It's an okay mini board for basic use, but it can be tricky to program and is still quite limited.  If you're really looking to get into lighting design as a service you're going to want a more capable controller.  Either M-PC or MagicQ PC with a basic Enttec interface will run rings around what you currently have for near pocket change.  You also won't be held back or limited by what your controller can do, so as you buy or rent fixtures down the road you'll be able to use them to their full potential.  Even since buying my Congo Kid a few years ago I still haven't reached its full potential, and that's really how I think you want it.  I get what you mean about wanting faders and knobs - I'm much the same way.  See what you think about PC wings such as the M-Touch.  I personally struggle with the touch pads, but a lot of people like it and it's one of the cheapest options out there.  As far as strictly hardware consoles go, an Elation Show Designer might be worth a look.  ETC's ColorSource Series is nice too, but be sure you understand their limitations.  Lots to think about, but I'd strongly consider making a new controller "Purchase #1" and growing from there.

I could see Truss getting out of hand quickly for a one-person operation, good to know it's not a mandatory thing.  I like the look of staggered height totems behind the band, but really works best with some good moving spots on top (which i don't have).  I currently keep my Dotz Pars pre-wired on t-bars (daisy chain power and DMX with a terminator at the end) and it works pretty well but it still tough to transport safely.  They are too long to fit in any of my road cases and although the fixtures have rubber feet on them, it doesn't sit solidly and has to sit on top of everything else in the van.  Might start getting serious about rigging up some suspension points in the the roof of the van. My hope was truss could do some "protecting" too, but the added weight and complexity of making sure the mounting works for stored versus gigging configurations seems to be asking too much. 
 
If all you want are strictly totems, there are some lighter duty truss options out there that might work and are a little more manageable.  Another option is something like the Global Truss Glow Totem (link (http://www.globaltruss.com/ProductsList.aspx?MainId=20&Category=104)).  These break down flat so they're extremely easy and compact to transport.  Seeing as you operate out of a van I can say first hand that there's a very finite amount of 12" box truss that you can fit in one, especially if you have other gear to haul too! 

One consideration that might be a dealbreaker to your pre-rigged box truss is the truss's lacing.  Oftentimes 12" box is so compact that the lacing prohibits most light fixtures from swinging into it for transport.  It'll work for very small fixtures, but something like a Fuze fixture almost certainly won't fit through the lacing.  16" box truss is a little more accommodating of this as is truss that only has lacing on two sides.  I've see touring truss that can retract arena-sized moving lights into it without unplugging a single cable!  Very impressive.  Just more things to think about.  If you stick with the simple T-bar idea, there are ways to build a "meat rack" style of case that can hold several pre-rigged bars all securely yet ready to deploy.  Dave Bednarski posted this (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,163857.msg1509039.html#msg1509039) a while back and is a great example of how it can be done. 

LED pars ARE all over the place.  Man, talk about paralysis by analysis.  The cheaper they are, the more scant they are with photometric data.  Makes comparison hard without a demo or a reliable user review, especially with the typically short lifecycle of these products.  I don't do a lot of outdoor gigs now, but there are a lot in my area and once this is my full-time thing again I will be faced with surprise showers.  Good to know about your experiences, but I may just play it safe and go IP65 anyway.  *sigh* it's only money right?  Front wash will get regular use, so the ROI once up and running should be reasonable.  Should be.... that's why i kept going back to the idea of conventional lighting.  Most bang (lumens) for your buck, excellent staying power.  I know they'll look good on camera and people's faces.  Speaking generally of course, but it seems like I can get similar output from LED fixtures at a third the wattage of conventional, at triple the cost.

Moving zoom wash makes a lot of sense to me, but also feels a little gimmicky (well sorry, spot would be more gimmicky) for me to buy four now with no other intelligent lighting and some moderately bright upstage fixtures....?  I can see the value and flexibility though.  Maybe gimmicky isn't the right word.  I worked in an audio/lighting repair shop and we worked on a lot of dusty chinese movers from clubs that were always having issues. More moving parts, more maintenance, more careful packing... still gotta think more on that.
 
Yeah, it's a tough decision on the quality versus quantity versus overall investment price.  Some members here have had excellent luck with the sub-$100 fixtures, even for facial light.  When you can buy a whole rig of Generic Chinese lights for the cost of 1 or 2 name brand lights it really makes you think for a second.  Some of the questions I'd consider are whether you ever plan to cross-rent (i.e. is brand pedigree important), how important is fixture reliability, and will your work end up being filmed for broadcast?  If these things aren't really issues to you, I'd suggest looking to the lower end of the spectrum - either Generic Chinese or the fixtures in the $150-$300 bracket.  I've had decent luck with everything from the $15 ebay lights to SlimPar Pros if you use them within their intended application.  If you do need to operate at a higher reliability and performance I'd agree with spending the extra cash on the IP65 variants and getting something a little higher end, such as a Fuze fixture.  One interesting side note about overall quality, IP65 rating, and "professional" performance is that a few hundred SlimPars, COLORdashes, and Nexus fixtures were used on American Ninja Warrior (link (https://www.chauvetdj.com/news/chauvet-lights-the-way-on-american-ninja-warrior/)).  Maybe not what you'd expect to see, but apparently it worked for them!

Moving washes are a nice tool, but they're only a tool like everything else and it's up to the designer on how to best utilize them to achieve the vision.  Just because it's a moving light doesn't mean you need to have it scanning around the venue in "disco mode".  The reason I like moving washes is because they're extremely easy to aim and can be re-purposed many times over during the course of a typical show.  Static lights, with or without a motorized zoom still need to be aimed manually.  When hung way up off the deck this can be a rather tedious and time consuming process.  Not a huge deal in theater-world when a show might run for a few weeks, but when you're traveling on a daily basis it can be a pain.  With your moving washes, just hang and lift.  Once at show height you aim and focus from the comfort of your light board, usually just by updating a few focus and beam palettes - that's it!  I wouldn't say that all your front light has to come from moving washes, but it's a good way to speed up focusing and to get numerous positions hit from a single fixture.  I still use a mix of moving and static lights for front wash. 

You do touch on a good point though - moving lights mean moving parts, so repairs and maintenance will be something to consider.  It's just up to you to decide on which battles you want to fight!  At least with movers you can do truss totems the way you want, and then also have the ability to repurpose the lights when needing a bit more wash from the front. 

Hope all this helps!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Steve Garris on September 08, 2017, 12:14:10 PM


I currently keep my Dotz Pars pre-wired on t-bars (daisy chain power and DMX with a terminator at the end) and it works pretty well but it still tough to transport safely.  They are too long to fit in any of my road cases and although the fixtures have rubber feet on them, it doesn't sit solidly and has to sit on top of everything else in the van. 



How long are the light bars? I have 4-light bars that I place in Keyboard bags for transport. It works great IMO.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/road-runner-keyboard-bag/j23228000002004?cntry=us&source=3WWRWXGP&gclid=CjwKCAjw_8jNBRB-EiwA96Yp1jZ8m_pfzCqQSuivtgS3dhGwS5vT1wUr5cYfu4sCGaoj0oTvtFrKVBoCiroQAvD_BwE&kwid=productads-adid^156727059247-device^c-plaid^62390521681-sku^J23228000002004@ADL4MF-adType^PLA
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Brian_Henry on September 08, 2017, 07:45:34 PM
I made these road cases to hold t-bars.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 09, 2017, 11:35:26 AM
I made these road cases to hold t-bars.


Nicely done Brian!  Looks great, wish I were that good at building things....
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 09, 2017, 11:36:10 AM
How long are the light bars? I have 4-light bars that I place in Keyboard bags for transport. It works great IMO.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/road-runner-keyboard-bag/j23228000002004?cntry=us&source=3WWRWXGP&gclid=CjwKCAjw_8jNBRB-EiwA96Yp1jZ8m_pfzCqQSuivtgS3dhGwS5vT1wUr5cYfu4sCGaoj0oTvtFrKVBoCiroQAvD_BwE&kwid=productads-adid (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/road-runner-keyboard-bag/j23228000002004?cntry=us&source=3WWRWXGP&gclid=CjwKCAjw_8jNBRB-EiwA96Yp1jZ8m_pfzCqQSuivtgS3dhGwS5vT1wUr5cYfu4sCGaoj0oTvtFrKVBoCiroQAvD_BwE&kwid=productads-adid)^156727059247-device^c-plaid^62390521681-sku^J23228000002004@ADL4MF-adType^PLA


51-1/2" x 6" x 18", so it looks like some of those 88-key keyboard cases might do the trick, thanks for the idea I never thought of that!  I've seen some of your posts, you've gotten some great light shows with some inexpensive fixtures in large quantities, keep up the great work!  What are you using for a controller?
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 09, 2017, 11:38:19 AM
Another thought for going with tungsten lighting for your front light.  Instead of using ERS (leko) spots, go with the classic fresnel.  In the US the frequent street price for the Altman 65Q is right at $50.  Gives you adjustable beam spread, no framing shutters like an ERS but you can use barndoors.  You can also use gels, for instance a very light cool from one side and a very light warm from the other.  That gives more depth. 
EDIT: Oh yeah that price is for used.


I had never really thought about (or used) a fresnel before but you're right they sure do cover a lot of area inexpensively.  I haven't played around with warm and cool lights yet, limited by the best "whites" my RGB fixtures can pull off now.  Thanks for the tip I'll add it to the experimentation list! 
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 09, 2017, 12:25:34 PM

I had never really thought about (or used) a fresnel before but you're right they sure do cover a lot of area inexpensively.  I haven't played around with warm and cool lights yet, limited by the best "whites" my RGB fixtures can pull off now.  Thanks for the tip I'll add it to the experimentation list!

You might also want to take a look at these (https://www.bulbamerica.com/products/bulbamerica-par-38-lighting-can-black-w-socket-power-cord-par38-gel-frame).  I have a few dozen in my inventory and I believe Steve does too.  They don't have the beam control that you'll find on a fresnel, but they're small, cheap, and durable enough for mobile use.  The one nice thing about them is that you can use a wide variety of wattage lamps in them.  I run mine with 250w floods, but you can go way down to sub-100w and still get a nice beam.  The output is a little tight if comparing to a fresnel, but I like them and they're extremely economical.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 09, 2017, 12:26:04 PM
I'll refrain from "quoting" your whole post Jeff, but thanks again.  Great suggestions as always.  I had looked at those truss totems and considered them, but my fear was that they would be another one-trick pony.  At least with box truss lengths they can be connected into a larger design but those glow totems are what they are and no more.  Still, very compact and get the job done.  More to think about. 

I've starting doing more research into controllers, that M-touch does look like a handy tool.  I'll have to figure out what kind of workflow and features I'm going to want/need and start making some lists.

As for IP65, my buddy is doing a 3-day gig this weekend outdoors, and I'm watching the rain come down outside right now as I think about front lighting.  Is there a reasonably safe way to weatherproof a conventional light tree?  I'm imagining hi temperature clear plastic, but can't imagine it not affecting the optics.  Lekos, fresnels, par cans....someone must make one rated for outdoors, no?  I suppose in LED world there's the Ovation E-260WW IP but that comes with a price tag.

I could imagine picking up some conventional front wash lights first, even if they are just static for now, then a better controller, then some zoom wash movers to add to front or rear depending on the gig...  moving straight to the movers without a controller upgrade first would be a little awkward.  If only IP65 movers were cheaper!  I haven't defined a budget, but my comfort zone ends around the Chauvet Rogue 1 Wash / Elation Fuze Wash Z120 range if I'm picking up four with a road case, and that could buy a lot of conventional lights, or a TON of cheap LED slimpars that I replace if/when they fail. 

I mean, if American Ninja Warrior can pull it off.... lol.  I just don't want to be that guy with the failing LED flashing in everyone's eyes mid way through a show as it sputters it's last breath.  Then I'm known as the guy with the cheap gear.  Once the show starts I have very little time for adjustments or reconfiguration.  I'd probably want to triple the inventory for redundancy if I went cheap, then I'm really spending the same amount but packing more...I'd rather something that packs small with lots of punch, hence the appeal of the Sixpar IP style fixtures.  Proper whites and ambers are a must though for front wash.

Key points for me:  Will the gigs I do be photographed or filmed?  Absolutely yes.  I live in a capital city, there are a lot of government related gigs and a lot of local photography groups who attend gigs and take great photos.

Will I be cross renting my equipment to other companies / designers?  Perhaps a controller, but unlikely for the reasonable future that I would be supplying lighting-only since most of the big players around here already have warehouses of par cans and movers.  If I had a good controller and a big gig came in, I could see renting some of their kit to supplement mine but that's future talk. Brand pedigree is something I take seriously on major investments, mostly for future support and parts availability.  My sound rig includes brands most people haven't heard of (Danley, JTR) but I appreciate that they are small enough to offer personalized support if needed and the designs are high quality.  I'm certainly not planning on meeting any lighting riders anytime soon.  This is just to expand the production value of my sound gigs, and eventually offer as a standalone service when sound is already looked after by the band or venue.

How important is IP65 for me?  For front lighting, I'm settling on "very".  Which is my biggest tripping block to an otherwise very flexible and appealing moving zoom wash approach. 


I'm glad I came here!  thanks everyone. 
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 09, 2017, 12:35:05 PM
You might also want to take a look at these (https://www.bulbamerica.com/products/bulbamerica-par-38-lighting-can-black-w-socket-power-cord-par38-gel-frame).  I have a few dozen in my inventory and I believe Steve does too.  They don't have the beam control that you'll find on a fresnel, but they're small, cheap, and durable enough for mobile use.  The one nice thing about them is that you can use a wide variety of wattage lamps in them.  I run mine with 250w floods, but you can go way down to sub-100w and still get a nice beam.  The output is a little tight if comparing to a fresnel, but I like them and they're extremely economical.


Those are VERY economical.  Thanks for the link.  I suppose an appeal there would be that if I smash a bulb I could pick one up at a hardware store in a pinch. 


So, conventional lights like this, outdoors on a tree in front of the band (and therefore at risk for rainwater infiltration), outside of them shorting out and popping a breaker, are there shock risks present?  Would a 20A inline GFCI be enough to mitigate those risks?


I see a lot of people using par cans and lekos hung at the front of stages across the top or as side wash.... so am I making a big deal out of a little thing?  With LED I know you have electronics to worry about and the IP65 rating becomes even more important to the fixture's survival, but I still worry.   
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 11, 2017, 09:16:16 PM
Hey, sorry for the delay in getting back to you.  With the hurricane going on I was a little preoccupied!

Those are VERY economical.  Thanks for the link.  I suppose an appeal there would be that if I smash a bulb I could pick one up at a hardware store in a pinch. 

So, conventional lights like this, outdoors on a tree in front of the band (and therefore at risk for rainwater infiltration), outside of them shorting out and popping a breaker, are there shock risks present?  Would a 20A inline GFCI be enough to mitigate those risks?

I see a lot of people using par cans and lekos hung at the front of stages across the top or as side wash.... so am I making a big deal out of a little thing?  With LED I know you have electronics to worry about and the IP65 rating becomes even more important to the fixture's survival, but I still worry.

Yes, these $20 Pars are nothing more than a flood lamp socket in a metal can.  Note that the lamp isn't included with that specific kit, so depending on your selection all said and done they're closer to $35-50/ea. to deploy.  Still amazing bang to buck.  Yep, you can use Home Depot bulbs in these either as an emergency option or as your default option. 

As far as weather goes, they are grounded.  I've never been shocked by them either.  The only thing you have to watch for is something like a sudden cold downpour thermally-shocking the lamp and causing it to fail.  This has only happened to me exactly once in the past 15-20 years or so I've been doing this (on a Par 64), and I still can't definitively say that the rain caused the problem.  Most of these lamps are indoor/outdoor use, so they're pretty robust.  The bigger catch is that while these and most other conventional fixtures are very weather resistant, the dimmers you'll need aren't.  They need to be kept dry.  The most "weather-proof" way to do this is run a line of Soca to your trees and park the dimmers under the stage or in a place where they won't get wet.  Soca isn't cheap though and it's pretty heavy, so maybe more fuss than what you really want.

As for IP65, my buddy is doing a 3-day gig this weekend outdoors, and I'm watching the rain come down outside right now as I think about front lighting.  Is there a reasonably safe way to weatherproof a conventional light tree?  I'm imagining hi temperature clear plastic, but can't imagine it not affecting the optics.  Lekos, fresnels, par cans....someone must make one rated for outdoors, no?  I suppose in LED world there's the Ovation E-260WW IP but that comes with a price tag.
 
I've seen covers, enclosures, and "dog houses" made for this but it can be a bit trickier than you might think at first glace.  Optics aside, the issue is controlling the temperature inside the box.  Any piece of equipment with a circuit board will list a "maximum ambient operating temperature".  If you go the route of an enclosure you need to make it so that it never exceeds the maximum ambient operating temperature of the least robust fixture in the group.  If anything halogen or discharge is in there this can be very hard to do.  Even some LEDs give off a fair amount of heat.  Moving light globes like what Tempest offers have environmental control built-in.  As you can imagine, these aren't cheap and most likely overkill for a non-fixed installation.  I've debated building little sheet metal roofs or bonnets for my trees, but in Florida where it rains sideways I'm not sure how useful these would actually be in practice. 

I mean, if American Ninja Warrior can pull it off.... lol.  I just don't want to be that guy with the failing LED flashing in everyone's eyes mid way through a show as it sputters it's last breath.  Then I'm known as the guy with the cheap gear.  Once the show starts I have very little time for adjustments or reconfiguration.  I'd probably want to triple the inventory for redundancy if I went cheap, then I'm really spending the same amount but packing more...I'd rather something that packs small with lots of punch, hence the appeal of the Sixpar IP style fixtures.  Proper whites and ambers are a must though for front wash.

I totally get what you mean.  The reason I bring up American Ninja Warrior is that it shows you don't need world-class fixtures to work on big-name productions.  Here is where it opens a can of worms though...  Do you need an entire system that is listed for "wet location use"?  The answer to that is "maybe", "maybe", and "it depends"...as usual.  Fixtures like SlimPars are not listed for wet location use.  Technically most conventional lights aren't either, yet you seem them used outdoors all the time.  So does that mean all the amphitheater and stadium shows need to be shut down because most of their rig is intended for "indoor use only"?  Not necessarily, and to be honest this is about where my knowledge and experience hits the limit of what useful advice I can offer.  Maybe someone else can chime in to fill in the gaps, but my experience is that if you're doing a fixed or semi-permanent installation outdoors then all your equipment must be listed for wet location use (IP65 or similar) or provisions in place to make it so, such as a Tempest enclosure...and this extends beyond just the fixtures.  The electrical components of the installation must meet the same requirement, which gets expensive - fast.  In your case, maybe you buy some SixPar IPs and have wet location use fixtures, but that only carries you to what they plug in to.  Is your distro listed for wet location use?  How about your controller?  See where I'm going with this?  To be 100% wet location use things can get extremely expensive and much further down the rabbit hole than you're looking to go.  Here's the caveat though - as a mobile operator you're not confined to the same rules as for a fixed installation.   

My understanding of the topic and thus how I've always operated for mobile outdoor shows is that so long as your equipment is under constant supervision when energized, you have a comprehensive weather plan in place, and you have the ability to safely remove power both during AND after inclement weather has occurred...you're okay running non-outdoor equipment outdoors.  Unfortunately I can't cite a source for this.  I only mention it because it's how outdoor productions running conventional lights, non-IP movers, and non-IP LEDs can operate without being shut down...so long as the electrical infrastructure is up to code for wet location use.  You're obviously voiding your warranty and not using the equipment as listed when doing this, but that's the decision you have to make.  I believe Altman offers a few outdoor conventionals as do a few others.  IP movers are few and expensive. 

That's why you have to decide if it's worth it to buy the IP fixtures anyways to have the warm fuzzy feeling that you'll be okay in the rain (until your tent dumps water into your console or laptop), or is it more economical to buy cheaper, more common lights in higher quantity, understanding that one or two might fail in poor weather...or just on their own.  Go to a few outdoor concerts and you'll see the model that the industry at large follows...   ;)

If it's worth the extra cost of IP to you just to have one less thing to worry about in the rain then I'd say go for it!  It's a direction that I'm strongly considering going myself for my next LED purchase...not that I've had bad luck in the rain and need a better solution - more so that I can just sit back and not worry about it!  Tarp the light board and let it rain!

All that aside, if you're doing higher profile shows that will be filmed you'll want a higher quality light anyways.  Cheap LEDs can do weird things on cameras, especially when operating at lower intensities.  Either way, try to get a demo of what you're interested in to be sure you like the output, and maybe consult with an electrician in your area about wet location use power.  They'll be able to help you out on the infrastructure side of things if you have any compliance questions.  Best of luck with the purchase!   

*Edited for typos and clarity         
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 12, 2017, 08:59:08 PM
Jeff, don't apologize.  Stay safe out there, I'm not on a tight timeline and you've been very generous with your time already.  If you ever find yourself in Victoria I think I owe you a beer or two! 

I'm on the fence between some Altman 65Q-type fresnels with barn doors (simple, flexible, semi-controllable stage wash) or maybe an ETC parnel; or going LED with a Colorado M Solo or similar (variable colour temp, IP65, homogenized beam face, motorized zoom).  Both have pros and cons.  Maybe a combination wouldn't be a bad thing.  Still thinking two per side on tree's and hoping that'll get me some reasonable face coverage.

I do think that I'm going to put off the movers for now, since that will also give me time to settle on a controller upgrade.  I've also come to terms with the fact that I don't have the pack space nor the time to focus something like a Leko to do it justice.  I'll stick to soft-edge washes for now.  If I go IP65 LED, I'll convert my cables to powercon true1 and that'll at least get me some reasonable protection up until my tarped, non-wet-location distro.

You've made some excellent points, I've gotta do some more thinking/budget analysis and see if I can get myself a demo locally on any of this.

I will definitely be picking up some 88-key keyboard cases for my upstage t-bars though, very happy about that concept!



I'll update this thread as my rig expands.  Thanks again everyone!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on September 12, 2017, 11:44:19 PM
Mixing and matching different brands of LED fixtures may give you less than satisfactory results if you want to match color washes. The RGBA+Lime ETC fixtures don't have the same color rendering as the Chauvet Pro fixtures (as an example). If you aren't doing theater it may not matter, but buyers should be aware that there are differences.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 13, 2017, 11:40:08 AM
Good point Mark.  I intend to stick with multiples of the same fixture, whatever I select for front wash.  My upstage lighting is RGB-only COB LED, but all the same model.  My use is typically live bands with some talking-head type gigs mixed in, maybe a comedian or two, nothing theatrical.  Still, as this matures it's good to keep things like that in mind so that I don't create my own barriers to new avenues of revenue.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 13, 2017, 08:07:35 PM
Jeff, don't apologize.  Stay safe out there, I'm not on a tight timeline and you've been very generous with your time already.  If you ever find yourself in Victoria I think I owe you a beer or two! 

I'm on the fence between some Altman 65Q-type fresnels with barn doors (simple, flexible, semi-controllable stage wash) or maybe an ETC parnel; or going LED with a Colorado M Solo or similar (variable colour temp, IP65, homogenized beam face, motorized zoom).  Both have pros and cons.  Maybe a combination wouldn't be a bad thing.  Still thinking two per side on tree's and hoping that'll get me some reasonable face coverage.

I do think that I'm going to put off the movers for now, since that will also give me time to settle on a controller upgrade.  I've also come to terms with the fact that I don't have the pack space nor the time to focus something like a Leko to do it justice.  I'll stick to soft-edge washes for now.  If I go IP65 LED, I'll convert my cables to powercon true1 and that'll at least get me some reasonable protection up until my tarped, non-wet-location distro.

You've made some excellent points, I've gotta do some more thinking/budget analysis and see if I can get myself a demo locally on any of this.

I will definitely be picking up some 88-key keyboard cases for my upstage t-bars though, very happy about that concept!

I'll update this thread as my rig expands.  Thanks again everyone!

Oh, it's all good.  That's the point of these forums!  I'm still very much a learner in many areas and I'm happy to share my advice where I can. 

So if you're looking conventional, the benefits of a standard fresnel can't be argued with.  If you're going to look at the ETC Parnel (or PARNel as they put it), also have a look at the standard ETC Par.  They have a set of 4 interchangeable lenses that give you some decent beam control without the "oddities" of the Parnel (which is a love/hate type of fixture).  If you do go with an LED option like the M Solo, be sure you're happy with the output before making the purchase.  Though I've never A/B'd them, I can say with near certainty that an ETC Par lamped with an HPL 750w will stomp all over the M Solo in terms of output in all but maybe the darkest colors.  That may not be a bad thing though if you simply don't need that much output to begin with.   

Mark brings up an excellent point.  Not all LEDs are created equally and different brands are not always 100% interchangeable.  Even more so, new LED units and old LED units don't always match in output either.  Some manufacturers factory calibrate their units to help mitigate this.  Some light boards can also do similar compensation (another reason to upgrade your controller), but in short, try to buy all your LED lights of any given type at once and try to minimize the fixture variety.  That'll help to ensure consistency between everything.  Conventional lights are more friendly to phased purchasing.  Good luck though and keep us posted!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Steve Garris on September 14, 2017, 07:23:57 PM

51-1/2" x 6" x 18", so it looks like some of those 88-key keyboard cases might do the trick, thanks for the idea I never thought of that!  I've seen some of your posts, you've gotten some great light shows with some inexpensive fixtures in large quantities, keep up the great work!  What are you using for a controller?

I ordered that case knowing it was about an inch plus too narrow, but because it is a soft case it worked perfectly.

My current controller is an obsolete Magic 260. It is excellent for single scene and chase programming, but useless for busking. I am in the process of migrating to Luminair 3. Either board works really well for me, but most of my lights are fixed and I just need cool scenes.

Those Par 38's are fantastic for front spots. I have 2 per side, and just plug them in with 90W bulbs. I made a bracket that sits on top of my speaker mains, and bolts to the speaker fly point with one 10 mm thumbscrew. They go up in minutes, and work very well. I'll post a pic when i get back from vacation.

Thanks for the complements. I only wish I could afford or have the cargo space for your JTR or Danely mains!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 15, 2017, 08:51:21 PM
Hi Steve, good to know the fit is a bit flexible! 

I have read posts (perhaps yours, can't recall) on here about mounting front lights to the fly points of the mains.  I would like to avoid this.  I generally use tilters on my mains and crank them up high to get a better coverage/consistency of the audience area, so this would throw off my center of gravity, as well as be a compromise between the best PA coverage location and best lighting coverage location.

Great idea, and certainly falls under the "quick", "compact" and "neat looking (when compared to more tripods nested near each other)" categories but I'd rather have the freedom to position the front wash lights and mains separately for each intended purpose.

Cheers!  Enjoy your vacation, I'm off tomorrow for mine!  You shouldn't hear from me for a couple weeks on this thread, or I'm vacationing all wrong.  :)
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on October 13, 2017, 04:59:15 PM
Hey Folks,

Back from holiday and back on topic.  So I've done a lot of thinking about my application, and decided that IP65 is important to me.  I had a look at the Altman Outdoor Par64 for my front wash idea, but the power draw and cabling/dimmers/etc for conventional lighting is pushing me over to LED.  Plus having some color-mixing would be beneficial for those events where house lights are already covering front wash duties so my inventory has more flexibility.

Movers are out.  Too much potential for wear and tear, too early in my lighting career to invest that heavily in stuff that will require road trunks and a better controller, and the lack of IP65 ratings sealed the deal for me.


I started comparing spec's on the Elation Six Par IP series (no zoom, no COB, but very flexible and since it's not zoom it's shallower - 6" versus 12" roughly - and therefore easier to pack).  Having dedicated amber to mix with the whites could be useful, and a nice looking amber would be appreciated.  UV, well that could be fun to experiment with, but it's not something I "need".

I'm thinking perhaps less is more, and two per side of their 300 IP model might be just what I need (or for similar money four per side of the 100 IP's for more coverage area but less output).  Point and shoot, if I need to cover more area just add more fixtures.  More fixtures has the advantage of more chases and angles, but the disadvantage of more cables and setup. 

I can handle the beam width math, but I'm having trouble with the required footcandle/lux/candella math to determine what will be enough, and what will leave me wanting more.  I've read and learned a lot, and there doesn't seem to be a simple answer (go figure).

I know I want something brighter than my 36w COB's currently used for upstage backwash, but maybe going too bright will overpower my existing inventory and be a waste of money?  You can always dim, but once you're on full, you're on full.  I realize ambient lighting will affect this requirement, but I read somewhere that 50 footcandles on the performer's face was a good target for theatre - anyone heard anything similar?  I don't usually work on stages more than 30'wx20'd and these would be no more than 15' off the deck, often less.  And this would not be theatre, but rather rock, blues, country, R&B, metal, reggae and pop bands.

A big part of this quest was a better white and amber than what I'm getting from my current RGB COB LED's.  In searching for IP65 zoom COB type LED's, I can't seem to find anything beyond RGBW without leaving the COB format.  Am I missing something, or is COB technology still not quite at the 6-in-1 stage yet?
In the youtube videos I've watched of the Elation Fuze series and Chauvet Colorado series, they don't seem to showcase the yellows for very long (usually quickly faded to green, which is the hue my current yellows seem to bug me most with).   Perhaps the addition of the white will help rendering some nice yellows without a dedicated yellow, and the fact that the Chauvet Colorado line seems to have adjustable colour temps (again, primarily lighting performers) makes me feel a bit better, but still hesitant.  Has anyone had a chance to A/B the Fuze series against the Colorado series?  Or has anyone tried one and have any comments on front wash applications?  Spec and price wise they are obviously going after the same market and are near the top of my list.


That was, before I found the Z19 in the sixpar series (6-in-1 with zoom!).  It looks like a great fit, if only it weren't so costly ($1645 retail CAD) compared to the similarly spec'd (no zoom) 300 IP at $797 CAD retail.  It's even priced well-above the largest in the Colorado Solo line, and the Fuze line, and it seems to be too new to have any reviews available yet. 

If I went that way, and only bought two for now due to budget, would I be fighting shadows all the time tring to light the performers in the back?  Several of the bands I work with include horn sections and backup vocalists, sometimes 11 people on stage at a time (shoulder to shoulder in smaller venues though).  Is it better to use more fixtures spread wider apart to deal with things like that?  Reason I ask, even fully zoomed out these are nearly as bright as some of the smaller non-zoom wash lights i was looking at.  I'd have them one per side, mounted on top of a tripod with something like this: https://www.avshop.ca/lighting-amp-effects/lighting-stands/prox-x-ls79-speaker-stand-lighting-mount

One per side means I could nest the tripod close to my PA tripod since i'm not worried about the width of a t-bar getting in the way of my mains, and opens up the sightlines a bit from the audience perspective.

Trying to really think this through as this will be my first rather large investment in lighting fixtures for something that I haven't been able to do a lot of my own experimentation on.  Thanks to all who read and respond!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on October 13, 2017, 06:37:21 PM
Here is another nickel's worth of input:
1. There is no good way to compare lights without actually seeing them on stage. Try to get a demo in as close to performance conditions as possible.
2. If you are cross-lighting from a single position (off to side stage, with no truss across the stage), keep in mind that the performers closer to the light will be more brightly illuminated than those further away. With two or more fixtures per side, you can adjust the intensity as the focus distance changes.
3.  IMO, not being COB isn't a big deal. Performance is what counts (albeit performance can be measured by different metrics).
4.  If you can't buy a full rig all at once, think about a realistic plan to build what you need/want. Make sure that your initial purchase will do an adequate, although sub-optimal, job for most of your clients.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on October 13, 2017, 07:33:35 PM
Thanks Mark! 

Sounds like two per side will be a minimum for me, as there's no truss in my immediate future.  In fact, that throws another point in the scoreboard for going to larger quantities of lesser output fixtures.  I guess I'll have to get on the phone and start trying to track down some demos on some of this stuff.

By the way, we got rid of the penny here in Canada, so no one can give two cents on anything anymore!  A nickel it is!  Appreciate it. 
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 17, 2017, 07:21:09 PM
Have you looked at the Chauvet Colorado solo 1 and 2?  RGBW with zoom and high PWM frequency for video.  That's what I'm currently using for the (smallish) shows I do.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on October 17, 2017, 09:51:23 PM
Hi Dave, yes they are in my shortlist. That is, looked at them via the internet.  Haven’t pinned down any demos yet.  How do you find the yellows without having a dedicated amber diode? 

Or more to the point, do they look natural as front wash on skin? 

Do you find there to be a large output difference between the 1 & 2? 

How many do you deploy for a typical “small-ish” gig?

Thanks in advance for any answers you can offer. Cheers
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on October 19, 2017, 06:38:41 PM
Glad to hear you're making progress Jeremy!  Your thought process is very rationale and methodical.  I hear you on the IP65, especially after getting caught up in a downpour coming in off the ocean last weekend...  No damage to anything though!

I started comparing spec's on the Elation Six Par IP series (no zoom, no COB, but very flexible and since it's not zoom it's shallower - 6" versus 12" roughly - and therefore easier to pack).  Having dedicated amber to mix with the whites could be useful, and a nice looking amber would be appreciated.  UV, well that could be fun to experiment with, but it's not something I "need".

Yet something else to consider - will these units ever be used inside 12" box truss?  Smaller and shallower fixtures such as a smaller SlimPar or a SixPar 100 serve this purpose nicely.  A SixPar 300 won't fit.  Even the smaller COB fixtures may or may not (and the larger ones definitely don't), likely depending on the style of lacing on the truss.  Not that this is a big deal for what I think you're trying to achieve, but when I add fixtures to my own inventory I like to make them as multi-use as possible.  Also, given the speed that this industry is evolving, it'd be nice to have the option of retiring your SixPars (or whatever you settle on) to truss warming duty when the time comes to upgrade to the next best thing down the road.

Mark is absolutely right though - we can compare specs all day long, but only a demo in person will tell you if something is fitting for your intended application.  Much like sound - a speaker may look great on paper, yet there is no specification yet that will tell you how "good" it sounds.

A big part of this quest was a better white and amber than what I'm getting from my current RGB COB LED's.  In searching for IP65 zoom COB type LED's, I can't seem to find anything beyond RGBW without leaving the COB format.  Am I missing something, or is COB technology still not quite at the 6-in-1 stage yet?

That's what I'm still holding out for - a 6-in-1 COB.  Maybe it matters to you and maybe it doesn't, and a lot of it comes down to application, but I personally prefer the even beam from a COB fixture along with its more conventional look.  Talking with one of my dealers at an event last weekend I couldn't get any hints as to if or when we might see such a fixture aside from one or two ebay products, but for what it's worth I was told a "Major Orlando Themepark You've Heard Of" recently purchased a few hundred SixPar 300IPs, so they at least felt that this product/technology was at a reasonable maturity to make such an investment.

Regarding the debate of fewer "large" fixtures versus more "smaller" fixtures, all I can say is that my Par 38s go out roughly twice as often as my Par 64s for events similar to what I think you're describing.  I'm a huge fan of strength in numbers.  Not only from a reliability standpoint, but also from a versatility standpoint.  You just have more options available to you by having more units in stock.  No matter your choice, still try to buy all the units you need at once.  While the consistency of name-brand units is much better than the Generic Chinese lights, I've still been inconvenienced (at best) by not getting all my fixtures from one batch.

Good luck and keep us posted! 

Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on October 19, 2017, 07:58:28 PM
Thanks Jeff, I'm starting to come around to the strength-in-numbers approach too.  Gotta keep reminding myself that it's perfectly OK to have two or more fixtures pointed at the same area to increase brightness, even from multiple angles, without all the resulting comb-filtering that I have to worry about in audio.  Good to know about your par38 vs par64 rentals, thanks for that info. 

Good thoughts on the truss warming too, although that's likely where my Dotz Pars would end up before these next fixtures if anything.  But yes I'm trying to make this a logical, flexible addition to my inventory that will allow me to offer a basic stage wash package to add to the audio gigs I'm doing now, and give me something to practice chases/scenes/real world applications until such time that I'm ready to take the plunge into eye-candy stuff and the controllers that would go with it.  Hopefully by then I'll have more time under my belt dealing with deployment logistics that I can make a wise choice when that time comes.

Thanks everyone!  Anyone know a good Chauvet or Elation dealer in Western Canada?
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Chris Poynter on February 08, 2018, 09:48:10 AM

Thanks everyone!  Anyone know a good Chauvet or Elation dealer in Western Canada?

I'm not sure if you found the answer to this question yet, but I live in Victoria, and purchase pretty much everything now from https://www.avshop.ca/ (https://www.avshop.ca/). They carry both Chauvet and Elation, and they are very easy to work with!  :)
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on February 08, 2018, 11:51:59 AM
please delete
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on February 09, 2018, 09:00:13 PM
Hi Chris, thanks for the tip! 

I was hoping for someone out west so I could demo some options. I too shop with avshop, mostly so I don’t have to deal with customs hassles. They’ve been great, even when I had a box of cables stolen off my doorstep. They were quick to send another shipment while I made my claim with the courier.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on February 09, 2018, 09:05:47 PM
....and no I haven’t settled on anything yet.  Spent the money I had set aside instead on some trunks, a new rack, and a new mixer (whoops) so I’m back to saving.  Seriously considering the Elation Fuze Z120IP, 2 per side.  I’ll update this thread as I go.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Chris Poynter on March 08, 2018, 11:20:03 AM
....and no I haven’t settled on anything yet.  Spent the money I had set aside instead on some trunks, a new rack, and a new mixer (whoops) so I’m back to saving.  Seriously considering the Elation Fuze Z120IP, 2 per side.  I’ll update this thread as I go.

Hey did you ever end up trying out the Elation SIXpar fixtures?
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 08, 2018, 04:18:00 PM
Not yet Chris, but I've nearly recovered from my last episode of GAS (yay new mixer!) such that I can put this back on the agenda.  LOL.

I still feel the 15-degree beam angle might be the toughest hurdle for my use, I'd prefer something wider, or adjustable, but then again there are always light shaping filters.....  the 200IP is the one that's caught my attention as far as price/size/performance.

The Elation SixPar Z19IP would be great if the cost weren't so much more than the (admittedly only RGBW not RGBAW+UV) similar offerings from the Fuze series or Chauvet's Colorado Solo series, which all include motorized zoom.  Decisions decisions.... 
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on March 08, 2018, 06:11:00 PM
In case you haven't seen it yet there appears to be a SevenPar Series coming out.  That may either lead to great discounts on the SixPars or an even more augmented palette should you go the route of the newer units.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Chris Poynter on March 08, 2018, 06:28:00 PM
Not yet Chris, but I've nearly recovered from my last episode of GAS (yay new mixer!) such that I can put this back on the agenda.  LOL.

I still feel the 15-degree beam angle might be the toughest hurdle for my use, I'd prefer something wider, or adjustable, but then again there are always light shaping filters.....  the 200IP is the one that's caught my attention as far as price/size/performance.

The Elation SixPar Z19IP would be great if the cost weren't so much more than the (admittedly only RGBW not RGBAW+UV) similar offerings from the Fuze series or Chauvet's Colorado Solo series, which all include motorized zoom.  Decisions decisions....

Oh, I know what you mean about GAS haha, I just pulled the trigger (finally) on two SRX818SPs! I totally agree with the beam angle... although... I just want to use them for chases as part of my mobile DJ business light shows, so a tighter beam might actually be cooler anyways. I currently use the ADJ dotz pars, like you.

In case you haven't seen it yet there appears to be a SevenPar Series coming out.  That may either lead to great discounts on the SixPars or an even more augmented palette should you go the route of the newer units.

I saw that awhile ago, yeah... lime green! I would probably cross my fingers for the SIXpars getting cheaper, but we'll have to see.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 08, 2018, 08:12:04 PM
Just what I needed....more options!  RGBAW-UV-LG....it's a friggin alphabet soup! Lucky for me it's annual bonus time at my day-job next week.

Congrats on the new subs Chris, hopefully they improve your sound like you were hoping.  Intermodulation distortion is one of those things you don't know you're hearing until you hear it gone.  I think you'll like it.  If I find myself in a room that needs subs but not my beasts (Orbit Shifters), maybe I can rent them from you to help your ROI.

Yeah a tight beam in some haze or fog would be great for some punchy chases, but I'm getting tight on space in the van and storage space (allowing for all the audio toys I have in my future) so without getting too carried away I need the fixtures to be flexible, and a short-throw front stage wash would be tough at 15-degrees without a lot of units, hence my interest in zoomable. 


The other things is I'm still using luminaire for everything, which has been fine for my pars but might affect how much I can do with something with movement to it.  I haven't forgotten your advice about controllers first Jeff, just gotta walk before running and there's no shortage of software & controller options out there.  Avolites have recently caught my attention but haven't spent any time playing with the software yet.  Keep coming back to M-PC though, mostly for the cost-effective controller.

Borrowing some 500w par cans for a Canada Day gig this summer where they have a NEMA14-50R for me.  I'm fighting the temptation to just buy some conventional fresnels for their price/lumen ratio, but some venues I frequent have totally suitable front wash installed so a color-changing LED (especially with a motorized zoom) could still be useful on those gigs behind or beside the band.  Who knows, the hipsters out there might like the vintage look of some fresnels and barn doors up on the stage but then I'm always fighting with power, need to buy dimmers, mind the heat, replace bulbs, and they still can't sit outside overnight in a rain storm like the IP65 stuff I'm interested in.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 09, 2018, 12:38:31 PM
Have you looked at the Colorado Solo line?
Sorry, but I haven't read all the responses, so I don't know if this has come up.
They are RGBA with a nice zoom.  I use the Solo 1 and 2 series and really like the flexibility.
I just did a small install replacing 4 Lekos with 4 Solo 1s and the client is very happy.
I'm considering the their COB line for side washes.
Also changed over to Luminair, which is really simple to setup  and program.
PM me if you want very good pricing on the Chauvet line.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 09, 2018, 06:13:09 PM
Hi Dave, you mentioned those fixtures in reply #27, to which I followed up asking about the apparent differences between the Solo 1 and Solo 2 in terms of size, output, etc but didn't get a response. 

Do you find the 1 & 2 to be largely different in output?  My typical stages might be 30'w x 15'd at max, with a 13' trim height at max with what I have now for stands.  Looking to bathe the stage with wash with 2-4 per side on t-bars, 4-6 zones.  Not quite ready to commit to trussing at this time.  How many do you use on a typical small to medium band gig?  The beam angle seems to go wider (40deg) on the smaller 60w fixture than the larger 120w fixture (27deg).  Is there much usable light left on the Solo 1 when at widest?  With differing beam angles it's hard to compare on paper.

I've mentioned them a few times in this thread, they seem to be in the same bracket as the Elation Fuze pars as far as specs on paper and price point.  If your clients were happy with them after some Lekos, that sort of answers my question about the color tone on skin.  The color temp preset range is attractive.  Do you recall what wattage and beam angle the Lekos were? 

I'll send you a PM in regards to pricing, but discussing the differences between the two models might be better for everyone else if done in the forum?
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 09, 2018, 07:31:38 PM
Sorry for not following up, I don't follow this forum as much as the sound side.
I use two of the Solo 1s per side for a regular gig with a 20 x 15 (ish) stage.
I ended up making some barn door adapters, but I don't use them often.  At the install, I cut some matt board masks that fit in the gel frames to reduce the over wash when zoomed out.  When they're zoomed to more of a spot, the beams clear the mask for a round beam.

The Solo 2s have quite a bit more output, but have a tri-lobed beam, so I use them on larger stages for washes.  They are larger and heavier than the 1s.  Be aware that both of these are not lightweight fixtures.

Longer distance and wider angles can quickly use up your apparent brightness.  I rarely use the full zoom out on the 1s.  At the install, they run the about half zoomed and half brightness.  They don't try for a really bright stage, but there's certainly more avalable.  I set them up with four fixtures, two for general stage wash and two key lights.

I'll PM the info.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 10, 2018, 04:39:47 PM
Thanks Dave, that's all great intel!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: John Fruits on March 10, 2018, 07:39:47 PM
A few random thoughts:
> I don't think it has been mentioned but the Chroma-Q color one is worth a look, homogenized beam like the COB fixtures, good dimming and video friendly, available in an IP65 version.  Fixed beam but you can add the special beam spread filters like those that ETC used (and Elation). It also accepts standard 6.25 inch beam shaping devices like snoots and barn doors. 
>About those lime emitters, I think ETC used them first in the Colorsource series.  It turns out the lime fits very nicely with the usual RGB emitters. 
>In your search for a more advanced controller, you might find this useful:
https://qlabcookbook.com/1963/02/20/lighting-playground/
Qlab is Mac only and primarily for sound and video cues, but the recently added lights to the mix.  (Sort of like how Soundcraft added DMX to one of their consoles.)  The lighting-playground idea could probably be set up with the free versions of different lighting control software, Nomad, Chamsys, MPC, etc and with the Capture educational version you could have a fairly simple light rig to try out the software on, all without setting up a rig and getting the right dongles. 
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 14, 2018, 07:20:47 PM
John, thank you for the suggestions.  I had not seen the Chroma-Q fixture before, it looks like it could be a great fit.  I'll have to contact the Canadian Distributor to see whether or not it fits the budget, here's hoping.

The Qlab idea is quite interesting too... definitely outside the box but I appreciate the suggestion.  Started reading up on that too.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on April 20, 2018, 07:56:25 PM
For anyone interested, I'm still spinning my wheels deciding what route to go, and could really use a good smack across the side of the head by someone who's been in my shoes before.  It's looking like I'll be spending $4-6k for this next step after all the little bits and pieces, so I'd like it to have some staying power and flexibility.

I'm still thinking 2 per side on t-bars will be my deployment for front lighting, leaving my Dotz Pars in the back.  That is, until truss makes sense (but right now it really isn't feasible without fast-tracking a storage upgrade that I otherwise want to avoid).  Chroma-Q never got back to me about pricing on their units, so I've written that off.  I like the Chauvet Colorado Solo fixtures, but I'm not confident the Solo 1 will do it and the Solo 2 is more of a 'COB Trio' beam than the Elation Fuze Z120 single COB look at a similar wattage.  Not sure how well that would work with barn doors or similar compared to a single source.

I have essentially narrowed the search to three (somewhat different) fixtures:

1) ETC Source Four Jr Zoom.  I know I'm back on that train again, but the control available over the beam and the quality of the optics impress me, I don't think they'll ever go "out of style", and right now there are some second hand ones online for $160 each CAD which is a smoking deal.  The used ones are white, but so are the horns on my DSL SM80's so it actually might look alright with my rig. 

The beam angle range (25-50 degrees) is ideal for my typically short-throw applications.  Power draw will be a concern, at 575w each, two per side, I'm looking at a dedicated 20A circuit, or a pair of 15A circuits (since 20A isn't always available around here unless I bring my distro).  I'd probably buy both 575w and 375w lamps for a little more flexibility.  When focused and aimed properly, they should be able to provide a very good quality of light for skin and in photos (which not all LED's can mimic) with the ability to control spillover onto projector screens, audience, etc.

I'd still need dimmers, which has taken me down a long and painful path trying to find that sweet spot between a big rack of dimmers/socapex, and the $99 DJ level ones that seem to be nearly disposable and have mixed reviews.  The Leprecon ULD series seem to be around my comfort level for budget/features/reported reliability.  I'd need one per t-bar to be practical, so that's two dimmer packs that would have room for future expansion but otherwise represent a pretty costly part of this venture.  The ETC ES750 dimmers look great, and I like the idea of one dimmer per fixture for positioning flexibility, but the pricing of that dimmer is not in my range.

Then there's the transportation and re-lamping, focusing and adjusting on a ladder, and finding a case that can fit them (maybe a pelican per pair?) without melting if they're still a little toasty at tear down.  And it goes without saying that they wouldn't have the colour mixing flexibility of an LED product, and I'm not sure how well they'd handle the occasional strobe duties.  Basically, they'd be a one-trick pony that can solidly perform that one trick.

2) Elation Fuse Z120IP.  I like the COB style lens, barn doors, IP65 rating, and RGBW colour mixing.  I've done a lot of hypothetical math based on the published photometric data and the brightness seems to be where I'd need it.  Size is manageable, price is within my budget, no other components needed to make this work.  Could all run on the same circuit as my rear LED's with room to spare. 

Motorized zoom means I can make them do a little more than a standard wash, especially when I'm in a venue with installed front wash since I could use them to enhance my rear-lighting.  Downside is no dedicated amber diode, and for the cost, I'm into option 3 territory. 

It's the only IP65 rated wash in my finalists, and I've said numerous times in this thread that IP65 is important to me as I usually operate solo, so a little rain wouldn't cause a panic for me to try to get them protected or I could set up the day before without worries of the morning dew causing issues.  Still have to point them manually, but they wouldn't be as hot as the S4's.

3) Chauvet Rogue R1 Wash Movers.  OK so now we're talking a pair of road cases, two fixtures per case.  We're talking movers so until I upgrade my control (Luminair) I may find some limitations.  However, their size/price/output are right in the range I'm looking for (about the same as the Z120) and I could literally throw them up and aim them off the board later which appeals on a "speed of deployment" level.  Not IP65, so I'd have to keep them protected from rain.  A little more maintenance potentially.  Still no amber diode (RGBW).  The appeal here would be all the extra things you can do with a mover (beyond just aiming once) that I feel would allow me to charge a little more for.  I don't know how feasible they'd be on a typical tripod/t-bar setup though, usually I see movers on truss or truss totems, I suspect because the torque could make the t-bar come loose on the stand? 

For control upgrades, these new offerings from Zero88 and the Chamsys QuickQ have really caught my attention.  Option 3 would likely require that upgrade to happen sooner rather than later. 

I've ruled out the SixPar fixtures based on tight beam angle (15deg).  I really considered the SixPar Z19 for a while but it's simply too large and pricey since I'd still need four.  I wish they made smaller versions that still had the zoom feature but with the 6-in-1 diodes.   

Blizzard seem to have a lot of 6-in-1 options (some of which have wireless DMX, IP65, and lithium-ion batteries - oh my!) but to me that sounds like a lot of things that could go wrong and the battery life seems better suited to up-lighting than an outdoor concert in the park where I'd likely be using them near full power.  The Tournado Sky W-DMX is the one that caught my attention, but they have around 10 6-in-1 fixtures in the realm of what I'm looking for, which is either a really good thing or a really bad thing.  Anyone out there with Blizzard quality stories they could share?  They feel a little more imported than the other fixtures I'm looking at (buy once, cry once after all).  Then again, I could buy a lot of Blizzard LB Par Hex fixtures for this budget, and treat them as nearly disposable.
 
I've been regularly checking back to the Elation site waiting on some beam angle numbers on the new SevenPar fixtures but still nothing.  If it's 25 degrees or more, I might have an option 4 to consider that gives me more colour options and the IP65 rating I was looking for, in a static wash, but it seems to be in the same price category as my options 2&3 above from what I've seen online (which is really only one source, so it may not be accurate).

If I've said anything that anyone has any direct experience on, I'd really appreciate it.  Thanks to everyone who's helped me on this journey so far.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: John Fruits on April 20, 2018, 08:16:08 PM
Just to confuse you more, or perhaps guide you to a two stage expansion, Chauvet just introduced a new IP65 mover, in the Maverick series.  No word on price but the Maverick series is a step up from the Rogue series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cWXS6D-eHI
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on April 20, 2018, 10:03:38 PM
That new maverick fixture speaks to me on several levels. I could have a lot of fun with those and some of the new strike p38 blinders. Thanks for the link John!  I’m sure I won’t like the pricing but you can’t argue the versatility.

What are your thoughts on deploying movers without truss?
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: John Fruits on April 20, 2018, 10:21:56 PM
I know that Victor of Squeek Lights frequently sends out ground packages using pipe and base.
https://www.facebook.com/SqueekLights
It is still a lot more hassle that lighting tripods but less of a hassle than truss and the beefier truss support options.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on April 20, 2018, 11:34:49 PM
Just to confuse you more...

And Elation just released a Seven Series, in case you'd like lime to go with your SixPar... 

The Maverick Storm 1 Wash interests me as well.  One of these years I'll finally find a suitable replacement for my Studio Beams that'll match their output but won't break the bank.  Legit outdoor capabilities would be nice as well given that my next investment in LED Pars will also be IP.  Any word on the Storm 1 price yet?  I'm guessing $3499. 

Mounting moving lights on a pole can be tricky.  I actually just posted a thread about mounting fixtures on poles on controlbooth...  Aside from the momentum concerns, you also have to use a mount that's rugged enough to safely support the fixture itself.  I just bought a dozen attachments that let me mount a fixture directly on top of a speaker stand or ST-132, but it won't work for a moving head.  My Elation Sniper Pros are the heaviest thing I'll put up there. 

Just a comment about your 575w power draw...  Loading 2300w onto a 20A circuit can still trip the breaker.  It may not be right away (could take an hour or two), but it can happen.  You typically don't want to load a circuit beyond 80% for a "continuous load", which I believe is defined as 3 hours or more.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on April 21, 2018, 05:32:09 PM
Thanks for the math check on the circuit loading, that’s good to know. 

I wish Elation would hurry up and publish the beam angle specs for the Seven Par 7IP already.  If it’s 25 degrees or wider, that’s probably the way I’d go.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on April 21, 2018, 05:54:58 PM
Not a problem, and as a slight disclaimer there are types of breakers that can run at full load indefinitely - usually found on some dimmer racks and other specialty applications.  I'm talking more about the upstream breaker you'll be plugging into at your local hotel/banquet center/etc. 

I agree, but I'd be surprised if it's that narrow in practice.  Even then, there are way to widen the beam a bit.  I'm more interested in what the actual price will be.  The initial numbers I'm seeing aren't encouraging when you need to buy 40 of them!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 21, 2018, 06:11:14 PM
Not a problem, and as a slight disclaimer there are types of breakers that can run at full load indefinitely - usually found on some dimmer racks and other specialty applications.  I'm talking more about the upstream breaker you'll be plugging into at your local hotel/banquet center/etc. 

I agree, but I'd be surprised if it's that narrow in practice.  Even then, there are way to widen the beam a bit.  I'm more interested in what the actual price will be.  The initial numbers I'm seeing aren't encouraging when you need to buy 40 of them!

B&H has a price up of $1000, my guess to the trade will be about $700.  I would love to see the colors that bad boy is going to produce.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: John Fruits on May 29, 2018, 06:06:00 PM
The Maverick Storm 1 Wash interests me as well.  One of these years I'll finally find a suitable replacement for my Studio Beams that'll match their output but won't break the bank.  Legit outdoor capabilities would be nice as well given that my next investment in LED Pars will also be IP.  Any word on the Storm 1 price yet?  I'm guessing $3499. 

Mounting moving lights on a pole can be tricky.  I actually just posted a thread about mounting fixtures on poles on controlbooth...  Aside from the momentum concerns, you also have to use a mount that's rugged enough to safely support the fixture itself.  I just bought a dozen attachments that let me mount a fixture directly on top of a speaker stand or ST-132, but it won't work for a moving head.  My Elation Sniper Pros are the heaviest thing I'll put up there. 
Jeff and Jeremy, Ford Sellers from Chauvet Pro has said that the prices on the new products should be available for InfoCom June 6-8.

Also Steve from Squeek lights said that their ground packages using pipe and base are limited to 10'.  Also, to be clear, that's 1.5" Sch 40 pipe and 50 # boom bases (not pipe and drape stuff).
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 29, 2018, 07:15:39 PM
Thanks John, I guess I'll have to wait another week to see how close I am with my price guessing! 
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Dave Garoutte on May 29, 2018, 09:19:27 PM
PM me for Chauvet pricing.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on May 30, 2018, 04:07:21 PM
Thanks John, looking forward to it. 

FWIW Elation told me via their social media page that their photometric specifications for the seven series would be published on their website by the end of the month.  As of this moment on the second to last day of the month, they are not.  I check daily because I'm nothing if not obsessive.

Also FWIW, Scott the price you've cited for the seven series from B&H is for the larger Seven Par 19IP (19 x 25w emitters, 500w max, 56 lbs); my interest is the smaller 7IP with 7x25w emitters, 185w max, 11lbs.

There's a local (to me) production company selling off some second-hand JB Lighting A7 wash lights for a very attractive price.  Not IP rated, but it looks like they have some excellent features for a moving zoom wash with variable colour temp control (strangely only RGB).  Tempting as a very flexible addition to a relatively small inventory, but I'm still very interested in IP65 fixtures for front wash so some of the 7IP fixtures from Elation would round out that inventory nicely with their 7-in-1 emitters and IP rating.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on July 04, 2018, 07:57:03 PM
For anyone following along at home, Elation have posted the photometric test report files for the Seven Par 7IP fixtures on their website. 
I have to say, they are WAY BEYOND the detail of the specs found in any other fixture in this price category that I've compared yet.  In fact, they're so detailed that I can actually get a reasonable idea of how they compare to other types of fixtures but there's a lot of information on the sheets that is over my head.  Hats off to Elation for that.

Here's a link (https://www.elationlighting.com/seven-par-7ip) for anyone interested.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jim Turner on July 06, 2018, 02:45:18 AM
Hey Jeremy!
On a side note... check your PMs.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on July 06, 2018, 01:38:33 PM
For anyone following along at home, Elation have posted the photometric test report files for the Seven Par 7IP fixtures on their website. 
I have to say, they are WAY BEYOND the detail of the specs found in any other fixture in this price category that I've compared yet.  In fact, they're so detailed that I can actually get a reasonable idea of how they compare to other types of fixtures but there's a lot of information on the sheets that is over my head.  Hats off to Elation for that.

Here's a link (https://www.elationlighting.com/seven-par-7ip) for anyone interested.

Thanks for sharing!  I’m hoping to see one of these in person next time I’m near Elation’s Miami showroom.  I was just down that way a few days ago but was on a tight schedule (and driving Hazmat) so I couldn’t stop. 

It also looks like the Chauvet Maverick Storm is priced a hair lower than my guesstimate further up the page.  Not bad for what you get so long as it has enough output!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on July 06, 2018, 07:37:53 PM
Thanks Jeff.  For my budget, it would need to be several hairs lower than your guesstimate, but it does look pretty incredible.

At $800/each CAD, those Seven Par 7IP's will set me back $6,400 for 4/side, which is.... somewhat easier to swing for me at this point.

My FOH canopy/tent took some strong wind on Canada Day and suffered catastrophic failure.  Fortunately my gear is built better than that so it held up fine, but now thanks to the KD Tents thread here on the forum (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,167637.msg1547243.html#msg1547243) it looks like I have some other things to spend money on again.... 
Why is it that every time I buy something cheap I buy it twice?  I'll learn.  I think I need a "buy once cry once" tattoo on my hand, or maybe just on my wallet.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Mark Lee on July 19, 2018, 05:23:30 AM
Maverick storm 1 wash is too expensive!

To get a similar one, Hi-LTTE Thor Storm Wash IP 67 (19*40w), please visit www.hi-light.com.cn.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on July 19, 2018, 07:09:57 AM
Maverick storm 1 wash is too expensive!

To get a similar one, Hi-LTTE Thor Storm Wash IP 67 (19*40w), please visit www.hi-light.com.cn.

Firstly, I feel it is priced fairly for what it is.  Secondly, please read the rules about vendor participation in these forums.  Posts like this are not allowed.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 25, 2019, 05:21:49 PM
Hi folks, just wanted to check back in and give some updates on my quest for better lounge-level stage lighting in a portable rig.

Firstly, I picked up a couple Gator 88-key padded keyboard cases for my ADJ Dotz Par LED's.  I can have them pre-wired and connected to a t-bar, one t-bar per case. The whole thing is lightweight enough to easily carry or use the small included wheels to roll into the venue.  Also light enough that I can toss the whole case on top of some subs in the van. 


Photos attached.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 25, 2019, 05:28:58 PM
Secondly, I've been quite happy on small stages having four LED's per side for front wash.  Much better than when I was trying to do that with two fixtures per side.  A couple recent gigs (less than 250 people at each) with small stages allowed me to use them as primary front wash.  At 36 watts max per fixture, it works nicely for venues with limited power availability.


Photos attached.  Turns out being an exceptional photographer while also running sound and lights is an art-form I have yet to master, so the photos are not the best but give an idea of where I'm at.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 25, 2019, 05:33:18 PM
Thirdly, since I don't always get the luxury of small stages or indoors, I ended up purchasing eight Elation Seven Par 7IP fixtures to use for front wash and move the Dotz Pars behind the band or as uplights as needed.  All 16 fixtures can fit on one 20A 120v circuit with ease.  I have not yet gigged with them, but so far I'm very happy with the build quality, colour rendering and colour mixing of these babies.  I did a very unscientific test comparison of the (36-watt RGB) ADJ Dotz Par and the (185-watt RGBAW+UV+LG) Seven Par 7IP.  I put them on a road case and aimed them at the ceiling (which is off-white) from about 5' away. 

Ignoring the difference in output for a moment, the real difference is apparent in the whites and ambers as you can see in this photo.  Dotz Par on the left, 7IP on the right, full brightness.  It was more difficult than I realized to get my iPhone 5S to capture a realistic image of what I was seeing with my eyes, so this is just for the sake of general comparison.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 25, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
Finally, I needed a way to transport all the new 7IP fixtures so my first idea was to put them in the Gator cases and pick up two more.  Did a test fit, and unfortunately since the cables attach to the back of the Elation lights versus the sides of the Dotz Pars, I was not able to get it all into the case with the cables attached.  I would prefer to transport fully patched to save time on site.  Funny because I had previously mentioned that the side-attachment of the cables on the Dotz Pars limits my vertical aiming due to clearance of the cables and brackets, now I have a new (depth) problem.

The other issue with those heavier fixtures was that the case was now too heavy on one side (each 7IP is 11lbs, versus 5lbs per Dotz Par) and the little rollerblade wheels on the keyboard case kept wanting to lift up on one side so it wasn't as practical as I'd hoped.

So I had this thought about re-purposing a case I already own, made for drum hardware but currently used for mic stands.  I haven't really loved the way I transport my mic stands - the tiny wheels on this case are useless when its full up with 20 K&M tripods and there's no dividers to keep the stands from getting scuffed up quickly.  Plus I have to lay it down and undo the straps to get one stand out.  I figured I would upgrade to an upright rolling case  like this (https://www.audiopile.net/MC-770) for my mic stands and then use my drum hardware case for the 7IP fixtures.

Unfortunately, once I attached the clamps, I can only fit one t-bar in the case at a time.  Two is just slightly too big, and one leaves a lot of dead space in the case (not so great for a little guy-in-a-van company like me for transport and storage). 

Photos below with Mini Clamps from The Light Source attached. 
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 25, 2019, 05:53:07 PM
So now I'm back to the drawing board for a good way to protect these 7IP pars while transporting them.  All my searching just brings up road trunks but that's a little big for what I need. 

I'm considering trying the mic stand case again, but removing the clamps from the t-bars first so I can spin them which might let me get the lid closed with all 8 inside.  I'd make up some dividers to keep them from hitting each other, but I'd still have to attach them to the t-bars on site which I was hoping to skip.

I also looked at hanging the t-bars from some e-track mounted on the walls of my van up high and just transporting them as pictured with no case.  They are IP65 rated so if they are sitting outside for a moment during load-in/load-out in the weather it won't be the end of the world.  My fear is that the lens on these is flush with the front of the fixture so if I place them on the ground regularly with their face downward I might scratch up the lens (case solutions would have included padding inside to help with this).

My other thought is to abandon the cases altogether and make a rolling frame that I can attach all four t-bars to (meat-rack style).  The downside would be load-in logistics in smaller venues, the old "stairs" problem I still run into in my end of the pool.  I primarily work by myself so having something movable by one person is the goal.  Open to any tips or ideas on that front.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your help getting me this far.  I've been trying out some different lighting software (Onyx and Chamsys) to see what I like best before going the route of M-Touch or QuickQ to replace my Luminaire setup, but for now Luminaire does what I need and I'm looking forward to my next big-stage show to get some real experience using the new Elation fixtures.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeff Lelko on March 25, 2019, 08:27:32 PM
Looks great Jeremy, thanks for the update!  I'm glad to hear that you're really enjoying your investment. 

Regarding transportation, you've pretty much hit on the usual suspects.  Cases or meat racks work well for pre-rigged assemblies, though as you mentioned can get large and heavy.  I forget exactly where, but I've seen lens protectors that are made of flexible plastic and basically rubberband onto a Par's hanging bracket knobs.  While it's not tour-grade it seemed to work well for the scenario you mention - transporting not in cases but wanting some protection for scratching/gouging the lens.  Pros and cons to all this!  They also make quick-release clamps, so while that wouldn't give you a pre-rigged option it's much quicker than screwing each clamp down.  Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 25, 2019, 11:26:59 PM
Thanks Jeff that lens protector idea might just be the ticket!
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Steve Garris on March 26, 2019, 01:15:33 PM
Your lights look great. In the band pictures you posted, are those the Dot Pars?

Regarding storage, why not just eliminate those C-clamps completely and bolt the lights directly to the T-bar?

I also use keyboard cases for my lights.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 26, 2019, 03:33:22 PM
Hi Steve, thanks!  Those band photos were from just four Dotz Pars per side (8 total), I didn't have the Seven Par fixtures yet.  There was a delay on the order due to the True1 (or similar) electrical connector not meeting CSA (for Canada) or something like that but it got resolved fairly quickly.

As for bolting them direct, I had debated that (similar to how my Dotz Pars are simply bolted directly to the t-bar). 

I'm working with what I already had for t-bars (two that came with my ST-132 stands made of square tubing, and two tubular ones from Yorkville I already owned). 

The square ones fit nicely in the keyboard cases but the depth of the Seven Pars is a little much for those cases so I wanted to keep the Dotz Pars in there and that makes them the most portable since I use them at gigs where portability counts (the load-in for the first band photo included 11 stairs).

The tubular ones have screw holes, but they are too close together for the width of the Seven Pars.  Occasionally I'm given approval to hang lights from tent frames etc and I thought those clamps would be helpful for that, plus it gives me the option of mounting them vertically to my speaker tripods (ST-132's) when footprint counts.  The fact that the Yorkville tubular t-bars were the right length for that case seemed too perfect not to try.

I could use another set of crank up stands now, and another pair of ST-132's would fit the bill then I'd get another pair of those t-bars so I could bolt straight to the bar.... however then it would be too long for that case any way and I'd need to find a deeper keyboard case to transport those.  Round in circles I go!  Besides, I think I'd rather go with a Duratruss stand next time, save the cable/locking pins headache.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Mal Brown on March 27, 2019, 12:39:33 AM
Dt3900L is a great stand...

I”be been transporting some inexpensive 9x10 LED pars on t-bars.  4 or 6 (2up, 4 down).  I load them last and lay the first on a quilt on top of my subs, next one goes in with the bars together, pars flat.  Another quilt.  Last 2 pars.  Fully wired.  Bungees in place.  Done that for a couple of years.

This season I’ve moved to a truss rig so I’ll be doing things differently.  Probably still piled on the subs, in spite of the trolley rig I built.

Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Mal Brown on March 27, 2019, 12:55:02 AM
Monoprice has a $100 6x10 color mixing in 65 par.  Thinking about those for my front washes.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=612790
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 27, 2019, 12:29:31 PM
Thanks Mal, that's the stand that I'm considering.  Although the DT-Pro4000 looks pretty nice too, but I digress.

Thanks for the rundown on your loading techniques, the weather is getting a little nicer now so I might have to do a few test-packs and experiment with different options.

Sorry I don't have any experience with the monoprice products. 

Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 28, 2019, 03:09:22 AM
Your lights look great. In the band pictures you posted, are those the Dot Pars?

Regarding storage, why not just eliminate those C-clamps completely and bolt the lights directly to the T-bar?

I also use keyboard cases for my lights.

I am Blizzard fan, the Hotbox's are a good fixture.

Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 28, 2019, 11:48:55 AM
to keep that comment on topic Scott, how do you transport them?
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on March 28, 2019, 09:39:49 PM
When my Hotbox fixtures go out (dry rental or my job), I pack them in three rows of three (front to front; back to back) in an EWI M-series case. A piece of packing blanket goes in between the upper and lower layers.  Up to 18 fixtures per case, with room for power cables.

Because I'm doing one-offs or rentals, I don't try to keep them pre-rigged.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 29, 2019, 01:08:45 PM
Thanks Mark, appreciate the tips.  I'm going to practice my LED tetris this weekend with various cases I already own and see what I can come up with.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Jeremy Young on May 04, 2019, 04:27:42 PM
Update: found a good use for some mic stand bags I had, protecting the lenses of the lights during transport while not adding much weight or bulk.  Fit like a glove.

Also picked up some hardware for my e-track that allows me to suspend these t-bars off the ground in my van.  rated at 200lbs max load but overall I'm hanging <50lbs.  The distance off the e-track makes me a bit nervous for bit bumps on the road so I'll probably add some more screws to the e-track to make sure it doesn't peel off the van from the leverage of these but so far I'm quite happy with the results.
Title: Re: Making a plan for a lighting upgrade
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 05, 2019, 04:54:37 AM
to keep that comment on topic Scott, how do you transport them?
I have a flat case from Rasha lighting, I forgot what was originally in it.  I can get 12 in it.   I used 6 tonight as uplights on the stage.  They washed it well. 

BTW I know many are interested, this was my second out with the Yamaha DZR's and subjectively they are much less cluttered than than the DSR's (not that the DSR's are bad) the DZR's are superb. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190505/e09991fc7d217d7c87e21d81aeea36e1.jpg)

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk