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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: frank kayser on October 27, 2016, 12:51:02 PM
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Hi folks,
I've been asked to come in and move a band to IEMs.
I have a wee bit of experience plugging in a "working system" and setting the mix for a couple drummers/vocalists in different bands. I'm pretty sure there are many similarities, yet also a world of difference between throwing a monitor at one's feet and sticking buds in one's ears.
Right now, I do not know the equipment that will be provided - they have 8 systems - 4 wireless and 4 wired. The band I'm needing to convert will be three or four musicians, and we will concentrate on the wireless. Fingers crossed that they are decent quality and matching... No doubt they will be dealing with included standard buds.
So setup would require finding and setting unused frequencies within the band limitations of the trans/receiver set. I think I may be able to handle that with frequency finder apps from Nuts and Bolts.
Assuming the IEM set has limiters - not a clue as to how to set.
Stereo or mono? Advantages/disadvantages.
Setting a basic mix - should not be too different than running multiple monitor mixes? Of course, that begs the stereo question...
Adding an ambient mic. I've read this is necessary to "read the audience" and room and to make it less sterile/disconnected for the performer. Where to set up the ambient mic, also ties in with the next question
How do band members talk to one another before-during-after the song without being in the audience mics or pulling earbuds out.
What am I missing?
I've had a couple years now running up to six separate monitor mixes from FOH. Communication with the performers during the show has been hit or miss. I do not know how to "mix monitors" as a separate function from FOH. There are some missing pieces between what I do and truly mixing monitors. I'm sure the answer is more complex than could be discussed here, but can someone recommend some reading material specifically on the mechanics of monitor mixing? I'm sure that will be absolutely necessary if the IEMs are to stay in the ears and be successful.
thanks yet again,
frank
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I'm not an expert at this but I've run IEMs at a couple of casinos in my area and a trick I've learned is to set up a 'comm' mic (or even two) on the stage that are routed to the ears only. They can add a bit of ambiance but more importantly anyone on the stage can talk into it and be heard only by the other band members. It's great for communication between songs or even during songs. I also rout it the the FOH headphones and if someone onstage needs something from me that can't be communicated by the usual hand signals, I can put on my headphones and they can talk to me without it going out over the speakers.
And it's also great for scoping the chicks in the audience too.
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I've run mono IEMs for years in a club band, touring regionally. Setup is Senni G2s, shure dual driver buds, 16 ch mic splitter, and a MixWiz. It gets the job done and is not complicated for band members to adjust their own mix with knobs. This is for 4 musicians. We don't use an ambient mic or comm mic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I used to provide mono iem (Senny EW300) but after trying stereo, there was no going back. Much better separation and not as much need to have 'more me' turned up so high.
Most of my musicians prefer an ambient mic set up but they usually only use it to hear the audience and room. I use my headset and I have a pack also to communicate to the band members.
I give them full control on their iPhones/ smart phones/ iPads etc for their own mix. Most digital mixers these days offer free apps for this purpose.
I usually give wired to drummers or keyboard players freeing up my wireless systems. I use Behringer P1's or if I need more than 2 wired systems- Presonus HP60
Limiters built into Senny packs and P1. You could also use whatever the mixer provides.
I also use the iems with wedges on the same stage with no issues.
I suggest you organize a band rehearsal to get everything ironed out before a show. I have done this with each band I have provided iems for and it helps a lot.
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I'm pretty sure there are many similarities, yet also a world of difference between throwing a monitor at one's feet and sticking buds in one's ears.
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No doubt they will be dealing with included standard buds.
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So setup would require finding and setting unused frequencies within the band limitations of the trans/receiver set. I think I may be able to handle that with frequency finder apps from Nuts and Bolts.
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Assuming the IEM set has limiters - not a clue as to how to set.
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Stereo or mono? Advantages/disadvantages.
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Setting a basic mix - should not be too different than running multiple monitor mixes?
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Adding an ambient mic.
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How do band members talk to one another before-during-after the song without being in the audience mics or pulling earbuds out.
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I'm sure that will be absolutely necessary if the IEMs are to stay in the ears and be successful.
IEMS vs wedges are indeed a world of difference.
Consider replaceable tips, or at very least disinfectant wipes. It gets nasty once reused and shared.
As already mentioned, intermodulation is a headache esp once the number of transmitters starts growing. You might need to change a few frequencies if performers complain about interference.
Senn G3 - Limiters are on the bodypacks. Make sure they are on. I've heard those advocating turning them off for better SQ... but only if you have set limiters at the console. A bad experience on IEMs is far, far worse than a squeal in a wedge.
Sonically, stereo is always better than mono... but very resource consuming - both in hardware and mix buss/output consumption. I allocate stereo vocalists to allow better harmony singing. Drums and keys are "nice" in stereo, but rarely execution critical.
A basic mix in IEMs is very different from wedges. Firstly, you need everything mic'd. A drummer on a wedge might be happy with kick and maybe snare. Put in IEMs and he'll want each drumkit component to varying degrees. Also, different performers want different things. Some are happy with a balanced mix, plus a bit more of themselves. Others want tonnes of themselves and just a few select elements.
Ambient mics are great, as are comms mic. I use an MD mic and/or a push-to-talk footswitch on the lead vocalist. It is more setup, however.
If I were you, hire in a monitor engineer with experience mixing IEMs on the first show. Someone who understands what a performer needs... IEMs can be very invasive experience to the uninitiated, and even to the seasoned the concept is still very "close to the bone" compared to wedges. The adage that "you don't get a 2nd chance to make a first impression" applies to IEMs. When I do supply IEMs, half the time I'm trying to get bandmembers over the line who due to bad IEM experiences are gunshy of trying again. Poor deployment by others makes my job difficult - which is why I try to give as good an experiences as possible.
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I suggest you organize a band rehearsal to get everything ironed out before a show. I have done this with each band I have provided iems for and it helps a lot.
+1 in a big way.
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Not a fan of IEMs for small venues with amps and acoustic drums. Been there, done that.
What I did learn:
Stereo is a lifesaver. Particularly for folks who operate in similar frequency bands (guitars, keyboards, vocals). Bass players and drummers have an easier time. Stereo allows for some spatial separation rather than just level. With only level, folks need to constantly readjust to hear what they want to hear in the moment. With stereo separation they can shift their focus around. More-me's center panned can hear themselves easier with everything else off to the sides.
Molded plugs. Even molded sleeves for consumer plugs. General purpose plugs constantly fall out. Even the so called "sport" plugs. And as they work their way out the sound changes. Especially the relationship to bass. And it's very distracting to keep pushing them back in while trying to perform, especially while playing an instrument.
Never take one out and leave one in. IEMs are such an unnatural "locked in a box" sensation that people will want to pull one out to hear what's going on. And they see performers on TV doing this all the time (as a reaction to poor in ear mixes for one song). In order to compete with the ambient stage volume in the open ear, the opposite in ear will have to be turned up to damaging levels. If someone absolutely can't abide by being locked in a box, use an attenuating ear plug in the opposite ear (Hearasers or Etymotic ER in a molded plug).
The corollary to that is to keep levels down. Use the mix to reinforce the attenuated leakage and conduction around the plug instead of the providing the primary sound. The advantage of the attenuation of the plugs to ear survival is wasted with excessive IEM levels. And keeping the levels down maintains a certain amount of spatial awareness, reducing that uncomfortable locked in a box sensation.
"Comm mics" are great. A leader can change up a set list without the audience being aware. Be careful of being distracted by them though. I've seen bands constantly commenting into them and everybody grins, eventually the audience catches on that there are private conversations going on and may wonder if it's about them. Focus on the audience and use the comm mics sparingly. They can also provide a bit of ambience and sense of audience. I actually like a pair of comm mics on either side of the stage better than other "ambience" attempts like stereo mics or pairs on the stage lip or choir mics over the dance floor. It's never going to recreate the spatial sense of open ears because the mics aren't where you are, so just get a wide enough coverage that you hear most of what is going on in some sense of stereo.
Individual mix capability is great. Phone apps for a digital mixer are more cost effective than something like an Aviom system but more distracting to operate. Get the other things right so that folks aren't constantly trying to tweak their mixes all night. Which takes away from the connection to the audience, which is why we're there in the first place.
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Don't underestimate your role as an educator in the process!
I have found the best results by having the 'talent' check their mic for a gain/level with ears out before putting ears in.
Intentionally set up a pack on a frequency with interference so they can recognize it when it inevitably happens and effectively communicate it to you/someone. Seems obvious but it's not to everyone. Clipping/limiter can sound similar.
As professionals it should be their (shared) responsibility to look at the battery bar before show time. When I install batteries I write the date on a strip of white gaffe and tape across them. I change them every 3-4 jobs (12 hours).
2 buds vs 1. Encourage molded ear buds. For $500 someone can visit an audiologist and get some Jerry Harvey buds. Buy, cry, try, once. If you start with universals and later go to custom buds its like starting over.
Mixes are kinda personal. After seeing feelings hurt a few times I have a MYOFB policy with in ear mixes. Sorry Jim but Jane doesn't want to hear you. :( It's another band dynamic you can easily avoid.
In stereo hard panning can be distracting. Try to be transparent.
In stereo panning is a form of volume control relative to center. If I intend on panning a source, I will start with it a tad hotter than desired and pan 30-50%. This usually this lowers the perceived volume enough without losing it in the mix.
Unless you are on a large stage consider starting without the ambient mic. Many have said it - the vocal you have setup are dumb things and listen to more than their intended source.
Many techniques. On a digital console I start with "me" at unity/center and build around that sparingly. If doing this in rehearsal environment then set up like you would on a stage. Consider starting with "me" (or barebones) mixes and play a song or two. What they really need vs. what they thought they will need are usually different. Things sound differently when a band gets going.
The iPad apps to shift the mix responsibility were helpful training wheels but challenge yourself and become confident on your own.
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So setup would require finding and setting unused frequencies within the band limitations of the trans/receiver set. I think I may be able to handle that with frequency finder apps from Nuts and Bolts.
Your major bands will find them for you, Shure PSM300's the body pack finds open channels, Sennheiser the transmitter finds it. If you can try to place all of the wireless in the same BANK on different channels. This allows enough separation between each freq so that they do not interfere with each other. The systems are designed to work this way
Assuming the IEM set has limiters - not a clue as to how to set.
It is different for each brand, but Shure PSM 300s and Sennheiser Ew 300 g3 both have the option.
Stereo or mono? Advantages/disadvantages.
Stereo for quality, Mono for economy. You can run 2 mono channels off 1 transmitter with the body packs panned.
Setting a basic mix - should not be too different than running multiple monitor mixes? Of course, that begs the stereo question...
Correct you use AUX sends just like stage wedges. Just make small adjustments
Adding an ambient mic. I've read this is necessary to "read the audience" and room and to make it less sterile/disconnected for the performer. Where to set up the ambient mic, also ties in with the next question
Depends on the type of music, at church they like an ambient mic, at shows not so much. I find that the ambient mic screws up my mix and losses some of the clarity and isolation that comes with IEMs.
How do band members talk to one another before-during-after the song without being in the audience mics or pulling earbuds out.
Hand Signals, or talk back mics, routed only to ears. Which also means you can have a talk back mic routed to the mix.
What am I missing?
Does your desk have enough AUX channels for this? Does it have enough AUX channels for a stereo mix? Some smaller/older boards are limited in the AUX department. Can you send reverb to AUX? some singers will like it in the ears some wont. It will deff be an adjustment at first, but after you have them you will not want to go back. Not just the band, but you not having to deal with loud stage monitors muddying up your FOH mix.
Oh Also! Sometimes turning something down is the answer, instead of turning something up. IEMs are meant to save hearing, not to blow out ear drums.
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I've only worked with Sennheiser gear but I think Shure has the same thing where there's a web app you can look up open frequencies in the area of the venue and it will spit out settings to avoid IM between multiple units. I had Sennheiser wireless mics as well and used their app.
Doing an on-site channel scan can be risky as someone can turn something on after you do that. Although verifying what the app told you with a channel scan is good if you have the time. There may be some unreported low power devices close enough to cause you problems.
Oh, and everyone leaves their cell phones away from the transmitter or the pocket near their belt pack.
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Another thing I thought of: "try to" (insist) get all the performers to set their pack levels the same (I usually recommend at max). Some will want to cheat by setting their packs at less than max because they're afraid of getting "blown out" and then you'll find that you'll run out of gain at the board because one guy's pack will need waaaay more of everything than everybody else's. Your life will be so much easier if they all have a common starting point.
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Another thing I thought of: "try to" (insist) get all the performers to set their pack levels the same (I usually recommend at max). Some will want to cheat by setting their packs at less than max because they're afraid of getting "blown out" and then you'll find that you'll run out of gain at the board because one guy's pack will need waaaay more of everything than everybody else's. Your life will be so much easier if they all have a common starting point.
But isn't the pack volume just another part of the gain structure?
I find that if everything else is set correctly i.e. gains are all good, aux faders close to unity, input meters and output meters on both mixer and transmitters firing nicely then if the pack needs to be turned down to be at the desirable volume, then surely it should be. If I was to insist that the packs all be at max, I'd have to turn something else down to compensate.
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I used to provide mono iem (Senny EW300) but after trying stereo, there was no going back. Much better separation and not as much need to have 'more me' turned up so high.
Most of my musicians prefer an ambient mic set up but they usually only use it to hear the audience and room. I use my headset and I have a pack also to communicate to the band members.
I give them full control on their iPhones/ smart phones/ iPads etc for their own mix. Most digital mixers these days offer free apps for this purpose.
I usually give wired to drummers or keyboard players freeing up my wireless systems. I use Behringer P1's or if I need more than 2 wired systems- Presonus HP60
Limiters built into Senny packs and P1. You could also use whatever the mixer provides.
I also use the iems with wedges on the same stage with no issues.
I suggest you organize a band rehearsal to get everything ironed out before a show. I have done this with each band I have provided iems for and it helps a lot.
Debbie, in your opinion how well does the built-in limiter in the Behringer P1 work? Behringer claims the P1 runs up to 12 hours on a battery. Have you found this to be accurate? Thanks!
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Debbie, in your opinion how well does the built-in limiter in the Behringer P1 work? Behringer claims the P1 runs up to 12 hours on a battery. Have you found this to be accurate? Thanks!
The band I have run sound for about 4 years - the drummer uses it. He likes it a lot and has suffered no spikes in the 2 years he has been iem.
The batteries last for ages it seems. I get 3 - 4 shows out of them. The really nice thing is that the red light low battery indicator comes on so early that you can go a good hour or more before the battery needs replacing ( only reliable for alkaline - I replace rechargeable 9v every 2 shows just like my Senny pack AA's to be safe)
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But isn't the pack volume just another part of the gain structure?
Of course. My point is that all packs need to be the same (or close). If three are at max and one is at half it will be difficult to get enough gain to the pack at half. If I can get everyone to set their packs at max before I send them anything, everybody can get enough of what they want and no one gets "blown out".
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Of course. My point is that all packs need to be the same (or close). If three are at max and one is at half it will be difficult to get enough gain to the pack at half. If I can get everyone to set their packs at max before I send them anything, everybody can get enough of what they want and no one gets "blown out".
With my Senny G3s I hand out the packs turned up 7/10. The transmitter's input attenuators can be backed off if I'm struggling for gain from the desk. If the transmitters clip then yes, pack needs to be turned up. Headphones sensitivities and voicings vary too. eg dynamic drivers lack the HF extension of armatures, but can be overly-present around 3-5khz before they roll off. That'd would have a performer reaching to turn down the volume knob sooner.
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Stereo or mono is often determined by the mixer used and number of musicians.
Most of the hardwired packs are only mono. Like the Rolls. I use the Whirlwind PW-1. Will do either. Plus the sound quality is better.
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Another thing I thought of: "try to" (insist) get all the performers to set their pack levels the same (I usually recommend at max). Some will want to cheat by setting their packs at less than max because they're afraid of getting "blown out" and then you'll find that you'll run out of gain at the board because one guy's pack will need waaaay more of everything than everybody else's. Your life will be so much easier if they all have a common starting point.
I find that the Senn G3's get a bit noisy with the packs all the way up.
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Stereo or mono is often determined by the mixer used and number of musicians.
Most of the hardwired packs are only mono. Like the Rolls. I use the Whirlwind PW-1. Will do either. Plus the sound quality is better.
Shure P6HW and Behringer P1 are both stereo. I have one of each.
The multipin connector on the Shure y-cable is a PITA once it fails however... and the cable itself costs more than a P1.
I concur re Senn G3 floor noise when cranked. Hence 7/10 on the volumes as a start.
EDIT: Stereo or mono is also a hardware function. Wireless stereo = more transmitters = more RF coordination = laptop, antennas, combiners, knowhow + setup time.
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I have converted many bands to IEM over the years beginning when the idea was in it's infancy in the 90's. So i have a lot of thoughts on the subject.
The first page of this thread has a LOT of great information in it and i basically agree with all of it. I'm just gonna focus on expanding a few things and then disagreeing with something. :)
1. Frequency coordination isn't a difficult thing. Learn to use Shure WWB6. It's free and works with all major manufacturers gear. The ability to coordinate frequencies is essential in our current RF environment regardless of the use of IEMs.
2. Customs are Much Much Much better than universals. Alclair will sell you a set of customs for 250 bucks that will give you a better experience than much more expensive universal options. And not having to buy tips all the time means you'll likely save money in the long run.
3. Ambient mics are nice, but require a very light touch. Basically when the band is banging away they add muddiness to the mix. But during quiet sections and between songs they open up the space nicely and allow audience interaction. There is no right answer to exactly how to approach this. It totally depends on the band and the environment. I have used them with ducking so that they are turned down during loud passages and come up some during quiet ones. But this has to be tweaked carefully.
4. Communication mics are a bigger deal than you'd think, especially during rehearsal. It's a pain to put your ears in and out every time someone talks. During rehearsals it's worth it to set up a switched mic of some kind for every player that doesn't have a vocal mic so that they can communicate between songs. A cheapie 20 dollar mic with a switch will work fine.
5. Stereo requires twice the resources but produces a 10 times better experience. I understand that sometimes the resources just aren't there, but i cannot emphasize this enough. Stereo is a Really Big Deal and if there is any way you can do it you should.
6. Always hardwire wherever you can. It's Way Cheaper. It's Way More Reliable. And it will Always Sound Better, even if you use the cheap Behringer P1. Drums are obvious. But try to convince anyone else that you can to go wired. I've wired guitar players that moved a good bit by just marrying the IEM cable to their guitar cable.
Okay, and now my disagreement. It was suggested above to possibly have everyone turn their packs to Max to make sure everyone is at the same level. IF their packs are hardwired, this is fine. But if they are wireless, Do Not Do This. The reason is simple. Many IEM beltpacks have very simple limiters or no limiter at all. Running the pack wide open may lead to a fairly low input level into the transmitter and therefore the beltpack if the performer doesn't require a lot of volume. The danger is this. When RF hits happen [and they will] they will come at the beltpack at MAX LEVEL and with the beltpack's headphone amp wide open will deliver VERY LOUD NOISES straight to the performers ear. Ask me how i know. In my hundreds of hours of performing with IEMs every serious hit i have taken has been a result of this issue and not the result of some sudden loud sound happening on the input side of the transmitter [dropped mic, feedback, etc.]. Ultimately, you should try to hit the transmitter at a fairly high level regardless of mix and then have the performer adjust their volume to taste. This will minimize this issue.
That's enough typing for now. Maybe next time we'll talk Occlusion Effect and Latency and it's affect on singers and horn players. :)
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I usually find that my packs end up around 50-75%.
I can always tell if a musician is getting good isolation in his ears by looking at 2 things. If the pack volume level is up high and how much higher the faders are on kick and bass compared to everything else on the mixer.
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I tell them to turn up the pack until they hear hiss and back it down slightly.
Usually ends up around 65-75% or so
This gives them a little room if needed.
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A lot of good stuff here. One thing I'll add and was addressed in a previous post. You'll need to mic things that you might not normally mic. For me it was the high hat. In small rooms I rarely need it, so it doesn't come into the FOH mix, but the musicians need it for the count.
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Wow, folks.
I am overwhelmed by everyone's generosity, quantity and quality of the responses. Not only what they are doing, but why. A lot of similar thoughts which could be termed "best practices". My mind f i n a l l y clicked on why stereo vs mono. That one had me stumped for a couple years of reading. Now it makes sense. A little slow, but trainable.
So many points, like custom buds, and changing stock to custom buds is like starting over. Com mics. Light touches on ambient mics. Advantages of wired i.e., sound quality and cost. Reminders that gain structure is an end-to-end concept.
Some of this I kinda had figured out, but the reinforcement was welcome.
The good news is that the transition plan will involve practices before using them in a performance situation.
I still have many questions - some offshoots of the answers I received - but some of this I'll work out on my own - a little more work on my part will solidify some points, answer some questions by doing, and I'll be a bit better prepared for the task at hand.
Thank you all.
frank
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I tell them to turn up the pack until they hear hiss and back it down slightly.
Usually ends up around 65-75% or so
This gives them a little room if needed.
In the senn transmitter there is a "sensitivity" that allows you to really eliminate that hiss. I've only had success in dialing it back for users on molded in ears that need very little gain to begin with at the body pack... but you can dial that down to near silence.
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In the senn transmitter there is a "sensitivity" that allows you to really eliminate that hiss. I've only had success in dialing it back for users on molded in ears that need very little gain to begin with at the body pack... but you can dial that down to near silence.
That's good to know.
I haven't messed with the sensitivity setting much. I believe factory is -18. I didn't want to go less than that. But I'll certainly try if it help lower the noise floor.
About where do you set your?
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That's good to know.
I haven't messed with the sensitivity setting much. I believe factory is -18. I didn't want to go less than that. But I'll certainly try if it help lower the noise floor.
About where do you set your?
I set mine to the clip level of the console, its gain staging and then you know when the system is going into clip which with the Senn units don't sound like clipping at all. If your musician complains about things disappearing out of the mix you need to have them turn up the pack level and you need to lower the overall level on your side since that tends to be the limiter kicking in in my experience.
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EDIT: Stereo or mono is also a hardware function. Wireless stereo = more transmitters = more RF coordination = laptop, antennas, combiners, knowhow + setup time.
I must humbly disagree...and pardon me if I'm mistaking your meaning...but I have run into this on a few shows where I'm coordinating rf for others.
If you have say 6 iem transmitters you will have 6 transmit frequencies whether the transmitters are set to stereo or mono. They don't use 1 frequency for mono and 2 for stereo. The stereo information is encoded into the FM siganl and decoded by the beltpack receiver.
In the same way, an iem transmitter only needs one antenna whether stereo or mono.
Combiners should be used anyway to reduce intermod and but are not a specific requirement for stereo mixes.
You still need to coordinate the transmit frequencies even if all the mixes are mono. It is the transmit frequencies that produce intermod...not the stereo/mono nature of the mix.The mono mixes are a little more robust from "whooshing" artifacts in areas of less than perfect reception as they are not trying to decode the stereo information.
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I think what he was saying is that some wireless iem allow for 1 stereo transmiter~1 stereo body pack or 1 stereo transmitter in mono mode to 2 bodypacks in mono mode allowing for 2 independent mono mixs.
(I.e.)3 stereo tx for 6 mono mixs.
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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I think what he was saying is that some wireless iem allow for 1 stereo transmiter~1 stereo body pack or 1 stereo transmitter in mono mode to 2 bodypacks in mono mode allowing for 2 independent mono mixs.
(I.e.)3 stereo tx for 6 mono mixs.
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
That part I get but whether the transmitters are stereo or mono does not impact the need for rf coordination or affect the need for combiners or how many transmit antenna you need.
And as many have said before...stereo is the way to go if you can swing it. A little panning can make the transition to iem less confusing by having sources appear in the stereo field where you see them on stage.
One tip I can pass on...if anyone is constantly asking for more top end in their mix, check that they have a good seal on their earpieces. Ambient noise leaking in will mask the upper range of the iem mix.
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I must humbly disagree...and pardon me if I'm mistaking your meaning...but I have run into this on a few shows where I'm coordinating rf for others.
If you have say 6 iem transmitters you will have 6 transmit frequencies whether the transmitters are set to stereo or mono. They don't use 1 frequency for mono and 2 for stereo. The stereo information is encoded into the FM siganl and decoded by the beltpack receiver.
In the same way, an iem transmitter only needs one antenna whether stereo or mono.
Combiners should be used anyway to reduce intermod and but are not a specific requirement for stereo mixes.
You still need to coordinate the transmit frequencies even if all the mixes are mono. It is the transmit frequencies that produce intermod...not the stereo/mono nature of the mix.The mono mixes are a little more robust from "whooshing" artifacts in areas of less than perfect reception as they are not trying to decode the stereo information.
If you have 6 stereo mixes you will need 6 stereo transmitters.
You "can" get 6 mono mixes from 3 stereo transmitters. At least on the Senn G3's
That's half the RF and half the auxes
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If you have 6 stereo mixes you will need 6 stereo transmitters.
You "can" get 6 mono mixes from 3 stereo transmitters. At least on the Senn G3's
That's half the RF and half the auxes
Yes I know how that works and all the Shure stuff from psm600 onwards can do it as well.
Senny G2 had it as well from what I remember. (focus mode?)
My comments were more geared towards the part about stereo operation meaning you would need rf coordination, combiners, antennae, rf knowledge.
All these things are needed whether you are running the transmitters stereo or mono and make things easier if you have 3 transmitters or 30.
Done flogging this horse now..lol.
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My comments were more geared towards the part about stereo operation meaning you would need rf coordination, combiners, antennae, rf knowledge.
All these things are needed whether you are running the transmitters stereo or mono and make things easier if you have 3 transmitters or 30.
Agreed, thanks for clarifying.
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Our band practices with IEMs just as we would perform. It took a few practices to get everyone comfortable with the IEMs, but they have made an enormous difference. Less stage volume, no ringing ears, everyone can clear hear each other (and control their own mix), we can easily play smaller venues without excessive volume, and our audience has told us we sound tighter.
The largest barrier (beside cost) was getting everyone to fully commit to doing it. We all go direct into the board and for smaller gigs, the drummer uses an electronic set. So everything is coming from FOH which make the sound mans job a bit easier.
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The band I have run sound for about 4 years - the drummer uses it. He likes it a lot and has suffered no spikes in the 2 years he has been iem.
The batteries last for ages it seems. I get 3 - 4 shows out of them. The really nice thing is that the red light low battery indicator comes on so early that you can go a good hour or more before the battery needs replacing ( only reliable for alkaline - I replace rechargeable 9v every 2 shows just like my Senny pack AA's to be safe)
Debbie could you please tell us what type of rechargeables you use or recommend?
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Debbie could you please tell us what type of rechargeables you use or recommend?
I use these....
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EQ3U2AA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
They have been great and continue to be. They are tight in the P1 so make sure to place a piece of ribbon or similar under the battery and it will make it much easier to remove - I have had no issues doing this.
I prefer slow charge - I find the fast chargers kill the batteries much sooner. I always have mine charged and ready and I keep couple of Alkalines with me just in case.
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Our band practices with IEMs just as we would perform. It took a few practices to get everyone comfortable with the IEMs, but they have made an enormous difference. Less stage volume, no ringing ears, everyone can clear hear each other (and control their own mix), we can easily play smaller venues without excessive volume, and our audience has told us we sound tighter.
The largest barrier (beside cost) was getting everyone to fully commit to doing it. We all go direct into the board and for smaller gigs, the drummer uses an electronic set. So everything is coming from FOH which make the sound mans job a bit easier.
There is a big trend around here (Northern OH, PA some acts coming out of Chicago) that have an x32 rack. They have all their IEM transmitters racked in along with the wireless mic RX's. They come to the venue and hand us a labeled stage split. Great way to make your bands sound more consistent.
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Frank,
I have been using IEMs with my band since 2011, and have done well over 300 shows now on them as a performer, using IEM g3 and and 3000 series sennheiser as well; additionally, I regularly provide 5 IEM mixes for a band I mix weekly.
I am going to break from the group and say that I don't think that stereo is make or break, personally. I have tried both and prefer stereo only moderately, but there are far more important things such as good ear buds with a solid seal.
I use custom molded Westone buds, a 3 driver model which has performed flawlessly since I got them in 2011. They isolate me from the stage volume and save my ears. I find myself performing with the pack set to between 3-4. Most of my bandmates have been through a few sets of cheaper ear buds at this point, with various results. Those with molded buds have been much more pleased with the quality.
I set a limiter on the pack, and a limiter on the console. With the band I mix, I make it a brick wall limiter that their mix just barely touches when they hit hard.
I'll agree with a previous poster who said the problem has never been from a stage feedback problem but rather from an RF hit.
I would also strongly disagree with setting everyone's pack at max (the same), I can't see a reason for doing this as everyone will want to listen at different levels; this also prevents them from turning up if they choose. Debbie's right, you can gain stage your way to a similar mix for everyone at the console.
Most of my band (14 people, btw) prefers no ambient/audience mic as we have a lot of open mics already and plenty of room sound. We get little audience sound from them, but our attempts at audience mics have not really had useful results.
The other very useful thing to do in my opinion is to provide a similar mic pack if you work with a band regularly so you can benefit from your mix sounding similar from gig to gig. This allows for much more fine tuning over the long haul, and makes for very quick set up times when you get it dialed. My band tours with our own mic package, always.
Finally, we don't use phone to adjust mixes, though we do mix our own ears. I personally think it looks much worse to pull out your phone on stage than to make a quick adjustment on a mixer (ours is stage left, and very easy to access). When I mix other bands, I simply handle the IEM mixes myself (save for the drummer occasionally).
Anyway, lots of different opinions, and lots of ways to do it.
Good luck, hope that is helpful info...
Nils
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There is a big trend around here (Northern OH, PA some acts coming out of Chicago) that have an x32 rack. They have all their IEM transmitters racked in along with the wireless mic RX's. They come to the venue and hand us a labeled stage split. Great way to make your bands sound more consistent.
Scott, we do a lot of shows that way here in Illinois/Wisconsin. Makes my job easier because all I have to worry about is FoH.
Bill
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Chris played 2 shows this weekend. Friday night he played with the band we have been running sound for for years - their bass player is leaving and Chris will be slowly replacing him - this was his first show. The venue is one that I refuse to run sound in - downtown Raleigh - as it is very poorly managed and encourages a young rowdy crowd who drink far too much. I have run sound there twice in the past and on each occasion I suffered loss ( a mic and damaged wedge grill) so I stopped doing it ..... Anyway - this isn't my point...but is my explanation as to why I wasn't running the sound there on friday.
For this reason, I put together the little mobile iem system for Chris this week - so he could use it when someone else is at the helm. We set it for mono anticipating not always having the stereo option available.
When we got there, Chris asked if it would be OK if he could control his own mix and the sound guy let him download the app on to his phone. Having the ability to control his mix on helped him get close to where he needed to be with levels. He ran mono for simplicity. There was very little time to set things up - sound guy didn't start set up till less than an hour before the show started - eek.... This left no time for soundcheck .....
That said, the show went very well........although singer had her wireless mic knocked over on its stand onto the concrete floor ( still works amazingly), someone fell into the guitarist pedal board holding a beer and a couple of glasses smashed on the floor right in front of the guys KW181 sub and splashed broken shards of glass and drink all up the front of it ( and probably through the grill too) .....sheeeeesh.
Last night - we were back to usual and I ran sound for the little 3 piece that Chris is in at a nice neighborhood bar.
Today we chatted and Chris told me that it was night and day from one one show to the other - in terms of clarity and separation. (Last night being the better one - thank goodness- LOL)
I always run stereo iems but on friday his pack was set for mono and he went with it.
So many folks here on the forum have said that they do not notice much benefit with stereo and I respect that - this is a personal thing - but Chris tells me it is huge for him.
Although he went with the mono aux on the night, he regretted it later. He said that he found it difficult to isolate his vocal especially without turning it up so high it was all he could hear in the mix, so it resulted in pitch problems. He could hear the bass OK so he wasn't too worried about that but he struggled vocally.
As has been mentioned here many times, everything being equal, for most folks the mono/stereo difference is all to do with the stereo pan settings and being able to push certain instruments to one side keeping players instrument in the center. Because we have ours customized to each mix and saved, the experience is about as good as it gets for each player.
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I will again thank the group for all the help on this. Unfortunately, the job fell through - sometimes after just a few hours of work, one realizes the working relationship will never gel, and it is better not to waste each other's time, shake hands, and part without drama. No harm; no foul.
That said, I understand the process and many of the pitfalls much better, and would go into the next situation much more prepared and cautiously confident that I could make the transition work and stick, thanks to you.
With much appreciation,
frank
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I use these....
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EQ3U2AA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
They have been great and continue to be. They are tight in the P1 so make sure to place a piece of ribbon or similar under the battery and it will make it much easier to remove - I have had no issues doing this.
I prefer slow charge - I find the fast chargers kill the batteries much sooner. I always have mine charged and ready and I keep couple of Alkalines with me just in case.
Thanks Debbie :)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Long post - I can relate to what everyone here has already stated.
I'm mainly a bass player but also provide sound reinforcement for most of my bands as well as few other locals bands and smaller festivals. I have been playing 50-100 shows/year since 1995. I have been on iem since 2003 and although I sometimes miss the thump in the pants from a big cab behind me, my plying has improved since going iem. I can hear what everyone is playing especially myself. This allows me to be much more precise for note selection and timing.
I started with Shure E3, then for sensaphonics to make me custom molds for the E3s, then moved to the E5s (with custom molds). Huge improvement having the extra driver for low end. In 2007 I got my first set of real custom buds. I went with the UE7 (3 drivers). To my surprise, the hard silicone bids were more comfortable and sealed better. I could wear those all day without a hint of pain. Earlier this year, on of them totally disintegrated and I got JH13 (6 drivers). Wow!!! The clarity is incredible.
Last year, I also invested in 4 ew300 g3 and started running stereo mixes. 4 of us are on iem and the guitar player agreed to join the club for next festival season. I don't hard pan anything, but stay between 10 am 2 o'clock. The separation is great and I can run my volume quite a bit lower.
We did a bit of touring this past festival season and we brought our own mics, subs snakes, cables, iem kit, X32-Q and split snake. We typically have 15-20min for changeover and it worked like a charm. We had a full rehearsal (at full volume) before the season and set all the iem mixes. We have never had better iem mixes on festival stages. Next year, I'm looking at getting 2 X32 racks (we need 20-24 inputs) and keep everything pre-wired in a rack. It will make setup even easier/faster. (Almost) everyone knows how to adjust their mix from the dedicated iPad.
The only problems are the odd drop outs and interference. I plan to address that with a combiner antenna which I can set up for line of sight to avoid the drop outs. I use the build-in scan before every show, but read that RF softwares are much more reliable.
All in all, it's not cheap to build a good iem rig, but I would never go back. I have had to on a few occasions where I subbed in for a band that wasn't set up for iem and I can't hear nearly as well and my ears often end up ringing at the end of the night.
Rocky
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Thanks, Rocky, for sharing your long-term experiences (13 yrs!) from mainly the performer side of the experience, but also as a sound guy. My inexperienced logic would want to believe that there should be little gained once one went past two or three drivers/ear. Six driver buds is what your experience says works; guess hearing is believing!
Thanks!
frank
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Thanks, Rocky, for sharing your long-term experiences (13 yrs!) from mainly the performer side of the experience, but also as a sound guy. My inexperienced logic would want to believe that there should be little gained once one went past two or three drivers/ear. Six driver buds is what your experience says works; guess hearing is believing!
Thanks!
frank
Correct.
1 to 2 drivers was the biggest difference. Gained tightened/lower low end and some clarity from the better drivers/xover.
2 to 3 drivers allowed even better clarity.
3 to 6 drivers provides more headroom.
I prefer stereo for better separation. I don't sing, but singers tell me they can hear themselves better. It also feels more natural to pan the musicians closest to where they stand on stage. I didn't like hard panning at all. It didn't sound natural at all.
Good luck!
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Correct.
1 to 2 drivers was the biggest difference. Gained tightened/lower low end and some clarity from the better drivers/xover.
2 to 3 drivers allowed even better clarity.
3 to 6 drivers provides more headroom.
I prefer stereo for better separation. I don't sing, but singers tell me they can hear themselves better. It also feels more natural to pan the musicians closest to where they stand on stage. I didn't like hard panning at all. It didn't sound natural at all.
Good luck!
Ah! Thanks for that additional clarification. Stereo was a mystery before I started this thread. Now, it's pretty well understood why it works better.
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You don't need 2 X32's....just more inputs. 16-32 ch stagebox.
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You don't need 2 X32's....just more inputs. 16-32 ch stagebox.
Agreed. But the difference in price between x32 rack and S16 is not that much and would get redundancy. May still go with core and 32 channel stage box. Either way it would be more compact than dragging the full x32 console. Will see.
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I'll just add in that there is a difference between a no amp all direct set up and using IEMs on a regular stage with amps and acoustic drums.
There is also a difference depending on the instrument you play. Transitioning to IEMs is much easier for bass players. There is a lot of separation of their instrument in frequency so they can hear it easily without a lot of panning or level. Also, the amplification tends to high fidelity so a very clean DI signal sounds normal. Drummers on acoustic kits also have it easier. Many are used to playing with some sort of hearing protection so the muffled sound of their kits with nothing in the IEMs doesn't sound that strange. The very transient nature of the sounds makes them easier to follow in a cluttered mix as well. Bleed in some highs from the front line vocal mics and it's even more familiar sounding. If you have some mics on the drums it sounds like recordings do and the drummer is even happier. They can never get the kit to sound like that from the throne.
Amplified electric guitar is more complicated. Nobody listens to a guitar amplifier an inch from the speaker. They're either out in the audience tens of feet away from it, or hearing a mic an inch away from the speaker though a PA speaker that they're tens of feet away from. IEMs shove that inch away sound into the players ear. If you can eq the monitor feed for the channel that helps a lot). The guitar is also in the same frequency spectrum as the singers, keys, horns etc. So there is less natural separation of sound. This is where panning really helps. Same with singers. Who are competing with the other instruments for sonic space. Although vocals are typically mixed quite a bit higher in level than comping keyboard or guitar parts.
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I'll just add in that there is a difference between a no amp all direct set up and using IEMs on a regular stage with amps and acoustic drums.
There is also a difference depending on the instrument you play. Transitioning to IEMs is much easier for bass players. There is a lot of separation of their instrument in frequency so they can hear it easily without a lot of panning or level. Also, the amplification tends to high fidelity so a very clean DI signal sounds normal. Drummers on acoustic kits also have it easier. Many are used to playing with some sort of hearing protection so the muffled sound of their kits with nothing in the IEMs doesn't sound that strange. The very transient nature of the sounds makes them easier to follow in a cluttered mix as well. Bleed in some highs from the front line vocal mics and it's even more familiar sounding. If you have some mics on the drums it sounds like recordings do and the drummer is even happier. They can never get the kit to sound like that from the throne.
Amplified electric guitar is more complicated. Nobody listens to a guitar amplifier an inch from the speaker. They're either out in the audience tens of feet away from it, or hearing a mic an inch away from the speaker though a PA speaker that they're tens of feet away from. IEMs shove that inch away sound into the players ear. If you can eq the monitor feed for the channel that helps a lot). The guitar is also in the same frequency spectrum as the singers, keys, horns etc. So there is less natural separation of sound. This is where panning really helps. Same with singers. Who are competing with the other instruments for sonic space. Although vocals are typically mixed quite a bit higher in level than comping keyboard or guitar parts.
I agree Stephen .....that was why at that show Chris had to use mono iem feed, he had difficulty hearing his vocals but not his bass.
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I'll just add in that there is a difference between a no amp all direct set up and using IEMs on a regular stage with amps and acoustic drums.
I agree with this statement. We went no amps (guitar+bass+keys) for small gigs (most of what we play < 200) with a real drums. The guitar player has a Axe-Fx II XL+ guitar processor and the bass player has a bass guitar processor. The biggest problems we had were cymbals bleeding into the vocal mics, getting the drum mix to sound good consistently, and (for smaller rooms) getting the drummer to play softer as to not overwhelm the mix. Recently, the drummer purchased an electronic set and it solved all of these problems. It also helped reduce our setup time.... The drummer likes playing real drums (as I like playing real piano), but as we get older we don't like carrying around a bunch of heavy gear. IEMs have really helped us out in many ways... once we got used to using them.
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The 3 piece we have been running for the past 18 months has no backline but the drummer has acoustic drums ( the kick is a friggin' cannon). However, it has never been a problem in the iems at any venue, any size. I can tell from the levels I see per each mix that the guitarist and bass player are getting good isolation and all faders are close to zero across the board.
Guitarist uses Fractal direct and the bass is TC Electronic BH550 direct or sometimes even a Sansamp.