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Author Topic: Club system  (Read 12057 times)

Brad Weber

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2008, 09:44:20 PM »

John Roll wrote on Wed, 02 January 2008 15:11

I have determined that the speakers ARE underpowered. The installer used the ratings on the cabs for sizing the amps. The wattage was much lower than what was needed, hence the amp was clipping and frying the horns. The cabs are really rated at 700w, therefore, I can use the CA12 in bridge mode to provide the necessary wattage to the speakers.

How did you determine this?  From examining the drivers and the system in use or based on the specs?

If I interpret what was said correctly, you are running the speakers bi-amped with the 18" LF section powered by a QSC PLX3402 and the mid/high section powered by a Crest CA12.  As far as I can tell, the SH-1810-ER is not rated at 700W anywhere in the product data, so I'm not sure where that came from.  When run full range it is rated at 300W at 8 Ohms long term and the product data sheet recommends an amplifier rated at 600W into 8 Ohms.  The SH-1810-ER product data is pretty clear that the purpose of bi-amping is to gain greater low frequency output.  When run bi-amped the mid/high section of the SH-1810-ER is rated at the same 300W long term as for passive operation and the product data sheet again recommends an amplifier rated at 600W into 8 Ohms.  The CA12 is is rated at 650W into 8 Ohms in stereo mode, a pretty good match to what is recommended and not underpowered.  The low frequency section is rated at 400W and an 800W at 8 Ohms amp is recommended .  The PLX3402 is rated at 700W into 8 Ohms in stereo mode.  So if anything, it seems that it is the LF section that is underpowered, not the mid/high section, and even then only slightly (less than 1dB).

A couple of things to check.  On the PLX3402, verify all the rear panel dip switch settings.  There is a limiter that is integrated into the amp, it sounds like it might be a good thing to make sure that is turned on.  You could also turn on the LF filter and set it to the 50Hz setting.  Finally, make sure that the amp is not in bridge mode.

On the processing, the SH-1810-ER product data recommends that for bi-amping the crossover should be set for 250Hz and have a minimum 12dB/octave slope.  By having it set at 200Hz you are sending more signal to the mid/high section than is recommended.

And since it apparently keeps happening to one speaker, check the wiring and connectors and make sure both channels are set the same.

Also keep in mind that clipping is clipping.  If the DJ overdrives the system input then what the amp sees is that clipped signal.  Changing the amp will not fix that, if anything it could make the problem worse.

Another thing to consider, the concept of oversizing amps relative to the speaker ratings is intended to provide headroom for peaks.  When the source is heavily compressed, like much of the music DJs may be playing, and perhaps even further compressed in the system, then the need for that additional headroom diminishes while at the same time the long term effects of the increased average power on the speaker increase.  So in those cases you may not actually need or even want to have that additional power.


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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video

Dick Rees

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2008, 09:55:41 PM »

Brad....

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/r/quote/true/27746 3/19468/

Sorry I don't know how to double quote and make the reply easier.  The gist of it is....this is a link to John's post above stating the tops are 3-way passive over some (unnamed) subs.  Therefore they are in fact 700W tops.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2008, 10:09:41 PM »

You don't add up wattages of drivers to get the total wattage.

It is all about voltage swing and impedance, not added wattage-unless there are multiple drivers in the same range and therefore "sharing" the total "applied" wattage (which you can't do-you can only apply a voltage and the wattage is the end result of the combination of applied voltage and impedance.

Also the wattage rating does not change when you run a limited freq response though it.  It is still voltage and impedance as far as temp is concerned, but does change when you talk about XMAX, but that is not the case here.

Unless of course the REAL problem is a defective crossover which is causing the driver to "blow".  We still have no idea what has actually been the failure of the driver.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Dick Rees

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 12:31:10 AM »

Ivan

The EV website gives this:

http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Speakers/EDS/SH-1810-E R%20EDS.pdf

Please explain to all concerned how the box can be rated at 300W in passive 3-way mode and 700W in bi-amp mode ( with the 400W 18 crossed over @ 250).  I'm extremely curious.  Still betting on amp clipping taking out the HF drivers.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2008, 06:41:04 AM »

The 300 watt passive rating comes from the limiting section which is the 300watt mid/high.

When biamped you can "apply" 400watts to the LF and 300 to the HF.  Ie: that is what the different ranges can dissapate.

That DOES NOT make it a 700 watt loudspeaker in passive mode.  See the 300watt rating.

Yes you can "apply" more wattage when biamped but that does not make the passive rating any higher-which is the way he is running it.

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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Dick Rees

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2008, 11:00:55 AM »

Ivan...

That's what I thought was going on.  The web-site info is a little confusing on this if you've never run into a "dual rated" box before.  So this sort of sends us back to square one in a sense and adds the distinct possibility that (being an older model) the X-over is also a prime suspect.  Thanks for continuing my education.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2008, 11:52:25 AM »

Quite simple if you think of what a crossover really does.  It is a voltage divider, but it is a frequency dependent voltage divider and only at crossover is the voltage actually divided among two drivers and then at a reduced level.  For the SH-1810-ER to be rated at 700W would require that any signal be split equally between the LF and MF/HF sections.  However, for a 5,000Hz signal there is really nothing being sent to the low or mid drivers, the signal is going almost solely to the HF driver.  I'd guess that 1,000Hz goes primarily to the mid driver and 50Hz almost all to the LF driver.  Whether a cymbal crash or kick thump or vocal, the amplifier is still capable of it's full rated output at all frequencies, but the crossover is directing that particular signal primarily to just one driver, it is not spread out equally among all of the drivers in the speaker.

Looked at another way, if a component in the speaker has a particular rating and the signal to be reproduced could include the bandwidth that component covers, then that rating limits the overall rating.  The LF section being rated at 400W does not affect the MF/HF section's 300W rating and if the signal will use the MF/HF section, then that 300W rating still applies.

Thus the overall speaker rating has to consider the rating of each driver within it's operating bandwidth.  It comes down to which bandwidth component is the weakest link.  It is common to have a crossover design that compensates for a lower rated but more efficient HF driver, with the crossover itself padding the level and dissipating some of the energy from the amplifier.  It appears that this is the case with the SH-1810-ER and the overall rating in passive mode is apparently dependent upon the 300W continuous rating of the DL10X mid frequency driver.


I reread the earlier comment you referenced
Quote:

Sorry,I should've been more specific. The lows have their own amps, QSC3402 and are not in the loop as far as the tops go. I cross the them over at 200hz. The tops are 3way passive; 18-10-1.
While 'lows' would normally be defining the 18" drivers in the SH-1810-ERs and "lows" are different than "subs", I can see how this might be defining a sub being used.  However, 200Hz is a high crossover point for any sub and makes even less apparent sense when the mains have 18" woofers, a -3dB point of 46Hz and a recommended LF to MF crossover of 250Hz.  You're barely using the LF section of the mains while putting a lot onto the subs.  Is there any particular reason for the 200Hz crossover?  Was this perhaps done to address clipping the CA12 with high levels of low frequency content?

Quote:

The problems started when the DJs arrived. I have never blown a driver in that system in t my 3+ years there doing live shows. My theory is that even though the overall level isn't enough to clip the amp, when they crank their EQs to get more highs and lows, it sending a clipped distorted signal to those drivers. Eventually they give up.

This seems to possibly be another clue.  I don't know how the DJs tie into the system or what they have access to, but it sounds like they do not have access to the DriveRack or the amps.  It also sounds like the clipping is likely occurring before the amps.  If that is the case, then more headroom in the amp won't prevent that.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video

John Roll

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2008, 02:23:28 PM »

Brad,
I meant "subs" not lows, which are the matching bottoms for the SH1810, SH-18??, I'm not sure of the model. The subs are powered by  QSC 3402s, which are 700w @8ohms.
I agree with Dick about being back to square one. Is the Crest sized properly for the cabs? From the last couple of threads it looks like it is, which gets me back to my original thoughts. There's really nothing that can be done to prevent the DJs from taking out horns if they're sending the system a distorted signal. They are going through the Driverack via a different patch cable. The rack is secure so nobody can get into it and wire-to-taste. What about Andy's suggestion of higher wattage components or the light bulb in series? Any suggestions as to what kind of bulb to use? I've also thought about giving them a patch in the Driverack which uses a more aggressive limiter setting.
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John Roll

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2008, 02:26:07 PM »

Ivan,
When I replace the drivers, the dome is usually completely gone and falls away in flakes. I have another one to replace this weekend. I'll try to post some photos.

John
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Club system-Finding the real problem
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2008, 08:15:21 PM »

That could be an indicator of overexcursion and slamming the pole piece.

Back to a possible crossover problem.  If you have a shorted cap, you will probably not see any indicators of failure-assuming a quality cap.  Electrolytic caps will explode or "buldge" usually when bad.

How does the coil on the bad driver look?  Is it burnt? And if so, how?
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs
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