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Author Topic: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)  (Read 38073 times)

Elliot Thompson

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2007, 11:43:06 pm »

Bennett Prescott wrote on Wed, 26 December 2007 18:39

Elliot Thompson wrote on Wed, 26 December 2007 08:10

The wattage increase is a matter of marketing today versus yesterday. Since everyone is yearning for higher wattage woofers they are rated less conservative today than yesterday. So the older drivers could indeed handle more power. Providing you are not overdriving the amplifier in the process.

I'm sure there have been no technological advances allowing higher heat dissipation in the interim. Rolling Eyes

Two drivers with equal T/S parameters and equal sensitivity in the same box, the one with the higher power handling will have a higher max output. That doesn't mean "it needs more power", it means you can GIVE it more power, though.


This depends more on how the manufacture measured the driver in question. Some companies use mathematical measurements whereas others take into consideration distortion as far as xmax/xmech is concerned.  Since we are talking woofers from all parts of the world, it is not as easy to compare one against the other even though they offer similar specs. It's very hard to find two drivers from different companies with the exact TS Parameters. Drivers in Europe tend to focus more on horn-loaded drivers whereas the States focus on Reflex/Sealed transducers. Personally, I look at the no% and disregard what the input sensitivity spec states for the no% is the true sensitivity of the driver regardless what the 1 watt/2.83 volt says. We must also keep in mind that no matter how loud a driver is, if it is not loud at the desired frequency, the woofer is useless for the application.

Best Regards,
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Elliot

Iain_Macdonald

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2007, 09:02:11 am »

Hi,

Just to add a few points to Elliot's excellent post.

PD: Nice drivers with a reputation for reliability and the capability to take abuse. Their last designer Neville has left to join Celestion. PD are owned by the European importers of Eminence. They also own the recently revitalised Fane. Friends in the USA have often complained of high pricing for small orders. This is usually resolved by speaking direct to the factory in the UK.

CELESTION: Beginning to make waves in the OEM market. They now have a very experienced R&D team. Expect to see some interesting new product in the next year. Not all the current product is on the web site.

18Sound: Nice drivers with great consistency. Part of AEB Group.
http://tinyurl.com/23vdxc

Seasons Greetings.

Iain.
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Iain_Macdonald

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Re: bad advise
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2007, 09:16:59 am »

Tim Duffin wrote on Wed, 26 December 2007 00:25

RCF/18Sound/B&C/Beyma are all very popular drivers with folks who build the pro level cabs

should be followed with:  "By speaker manufacturers who cannot afford the newer advances offered by JBL or EV...or wish not to pay for advanced technology and would rather settle for aged technologies at a lower price point."

Fact is, while the companies you mentioned are 'good', they are not the best-- the best comes with a higher price which is out of reach of most consumers.  No 18" driver from any manufacturer compares to the JBL 2269, now you decide why.

T


Ummmm..... Not quite. In fact a gross insult to many/most pro level manufacturers/box stuffers. JBL and EV have mostly withdrawn from the OEM market. So their technology is not available to the rest of the market. You also make the incorrect assumption, that there isn't a better 18" driver than the 2269. There are a number of better drivers available to manufacturers.

So what defines the best 18" driver?

Iain.
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Adam Kane

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Re: bad advise
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2007, 06:07:33 pm »

Evidently, the logo and the price tag...

Seriously though...I hate arguing about "the best driver" without taking application (musical genre, enclosure, required output level, etc) into consideration.  It's absolutely pointless.

Sure, the 2269 is an excellent driver capable of sounding super dooper.  But, what if the application is an enclosure which calls for a driver with completely different t/s parameters?  Now the 2269 is no longer the best driver for YOU.  Maybe the driver of choice is the Eminence/B&C/18Sound/whatever.  Before I get flamed...I'm in no way dissing JBL or EV.  Just saying that depending on the application, there may be a better driver out there regardless of price.

Maybe I belong to a lucky minority, but my company and I get to pick gear based on what SOUNDS good, not what happens to be made by brand X.  And hey...once in a while you're pleasantly surprised to find that the better sounding piece is the less expensive option.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2007, 10:00:31 pm »

The best driver is the driver that works best for you. In my case the JBL 2242H, but it could well have been a B&C which I found to be almost I identical in every way. Every way except in the manner it dissipated heat. It could be noted that a major difference between the 2241H (600 watts) and the 2242H (800 watts)is the ability to dissipate heat resulting in higher output. Some manufacturers dismiss this effect, other have almost duplicated the design.

From JBL;

"In VGC, air is drawn in directly from the outside
through three openings in the back of the magnet
structure. Air drawn into the structure passes over and
around the voice coil; it is exhausted immediately on the
reverse movement of the voice coil.
With VGC, JBL was able to make significant
reductions in the amount of dynamic compression in
transducers operated near their upper power limits. Here,
the effect of rapid and efficient removal of heat enables
the VGC transducers to reach final thermal equilibrium
with less residual power compression than traditional
designs, and long term improvements of 3 to 4 dB can be
made. JBL's Technical Notes Volume 1, Number 18
presents more information on VGC.
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Scott Smith

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2007, 07:47:46 am »

Damn Bob, throw a little "power compression" in there to really stir up the mix...   Very Happy
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Elliot Thompson

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2007, 10:12:55 am »

The JBL 2242 was a great improvement over the 2241. It works very well in a small cabinet, whereas the 2241 needed a sizeable box to prevent standing waves (Which comes from a speaker housed in a box too small for its requirements) in order to offer a better low frequency response. It also offers a higher xmax (9mm) over the 2241 (7.43 mm) to increase power handling.

The power compression of the 2242 (- 3.3 dB @ 800 watts) falls in the same class as many other woofers in it's league. The VGC (Vented Gap Cooling) has been around ever since the days Eletrovoice was producing the EVM Series from the 70's.

All in all the 2242 is good for a very small compact box. However, when we are talking large sub chambers the 2242 will fall short of expectation.

Best Regards,
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Tim Duffin

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still bad advise
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2007, 03:25:47 pm »

Best, meaning-- "exceeding all other manufacturers offerings in every specification relating to sub-bass frequencies."  Were not talking about which woofer is "more musical" or any of the other BS that people come up with to defend their inferior products, were talking about the amount of air an 18" woofer can move without self-destructing and without the assistance of exotic horn loading.


Now, you tell me which 18" driver specifically can exceed any specification of the JBL 2269 and provide data.

http://www.jblpro.com/vertec1/VT4880A%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf


T

Jeff Babcock

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Re: still bad advise
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2007, 03:57:57 pm »

Tim Duffin wrote on Fri, 28 December 2007 15:25

Best, meaning-- "exceeding all other manufacturers offerings in every specification relating to sub-bass frequencies."  Were not talking about which woofer is "more musical" or any of the other BS that people come up with to defend their inferior products, were talking about the amount of air an 18" woofer can move without self-destructing and without the assistance of exotic horn loading.


Now, you tell me which 18" driver specifically can exceed any specification of the JBL 2269 and provide data.

http://www.jblpro.com/vertec1/VT4880A%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf


T


2269 does have impressive specs but at what point does cost become a factor?... not that I have anything against JBL but their driver pricing structure sometimes makes me scratch my head.... at $2000 list I'm sure there are other manufacturers capable of making comparable or potentially even better drivers, but they choose not to do so as the market would not support that decision.

Certainly you could say that the 2269 is the best driver for the VT4880 cab it is loaded into, as certainly it was designed specifically for that application.  Placing it anywhere else will get less than "optimum" results in all probability.  I'm sure it would still be great, but to call it the "best" is simply untrue unless "the best" has extremely limited criteria.

Calling horn loading "exotic"... are you serious?  It's hardly a rare and mysterious process anymore and there are a number of stellar sounding horn loaded boxes that have stupid amounts of output.  If you just want to talk about purely moving air I could find some horn loaded boxes from Danley or Bassmaxx that I would happily put up against 2269 front-loaded boxes anyday.

Adam Kane

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Re: still bad advise
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2007, 04:10:05 pm »

Tim,

Ok ok ok.  I see.  It's about "moving air" but not necessarily in a musical fashion.   Confused  

I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find some crazy 18" car sub woofer with higher power handling and a 7" xmax.  But odds are, it would sound like crap.  Really loud crap.  And be very limited in application.

But, I guess I have a lot to learn, Tim.  Thanks for teaching me that any sub cabinet that doesn't employ the 2269 is not worth my time listening to.

btw...I didn't see any t/s parameters when I followed your link.  I did see a peak excursion number that, while not meaningless, can be misleading if someone doesn't know the difference between that (xmech) and xmax.  There's also sensitivity to take into account.  What good is a speaker if you need to feed it twice as much power to get it half as loud?  (not literally of course, but you get my point)

I've already spent far too much thinking about how to respond to you.

I'm done.  Good day sir.
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