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Author Topic: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)  (Read 38072 times)

Tim Duffin

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bad advise
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2007, 07:25:29 pm »

RCF/18Sound/B&C/Beyma are all very popular drivers with folks who build the pro level cabs

should be followed with:  "By speaker manufacturers who cannot afford the newer advances offered by JBL or EV...or wish not to pay for advanced technology and would rather settle for aged technologies at a lower price point."

Fact is, while the companies you mentioned are 'good', they are not the best-- the best comes with a higher price which is out of reach of most consumers.  No 18" driver from any manufacturer compares to the JBL 2269, now you decide why.

T

Chris Van Duker

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Re: bad advice
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2007, 08:09:26 pm »

I did a search on the 2269 -- only one hit on the LAB outside of the above message, and it mentioned that the price for the raw driver was $2250. I'm guessing it's a pretty good driver for that price, but not really practical -- it would seem that JBL really doesn't want those drivers in anybody else's cabinets but their own.

As for the 18" drivers which you can buy, between the JBL 2242 and the B&C 18TBX100, I like them both, but my vote is for the B&C -- close to the same performance for about half the price, and much cheaper to recone as well (though I haven't needed to do that yet).

Unless you really need to save 8-10lbs by going to a neo magnet, the 18TBX100 is pretty close to state-of-the-art. It's a very nice sounding, low distortion driver which also happens to be damn near bulletproof. They're as popular as they are for a good reason.

A couple people on here also recommended Peavey LoRider 18's, which are about $100 cheaper. I've used them, and like them, but for the price difference I'd probably still rather have the B&C's.

It wouldn't hurt to check out the other Italian manufacturers, either: 18sound, RCF (L18P300 is past its prime, though), Ciare. And moving north to Germany, BMS is known for their compression drivers but a number of their woofers look pretty interesting, too.

-Chris
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2007, 10:08:45 pm »

Chris,
The 2K+ price tag for the 2269 is the list price for the driver if purchased from parts. Because those drivers are used in current production boxes (Vertec), they are not available for purchase as a seperate component, same as the 2268 used in the SRX line.

The 2242 and the 2241, used in the Cinema products are available. The cost of the 2242H, the driver I use in my boxes is around $650.

Steve,
I see your point however your comment doesn't quite come across in that manner. Sorry if I misunderstood.
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Elliot Thompson

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2007, 04:04:48 am »

Douglas Anderson wrote on Mon, 24 December 2007 21:14

Have anyone on this side of the waters (US) heard of PRECISION DEVICES (PD), 18 Sound, and B&C speakers?  They seem to be very popular in England where the people are fanatics about designing and building their own cabinets.  What do you guys think about Eminence, RCF, and Celestions?    





Hello Douglas.

I've gone through most of the brands you are eying years ago.

Precision Devices. The price it would cost you to import them from the UK to the States, you could find a better speaker within that price point (Speaker + Shipping).

18 Sound. This company developed when RCF stopped offering their raw woofers to the public and, solely devoted their services to EAW/Mackie. A very good brand. If I remember correctly, some of the early designers of RCF are now there.

B&C. They became popular when RCF stopped offering speakers to companies like Yorkville and such. It was the closest alternative available at the time. And it's because of that, their popularity grew.

RCF. This was EAW's main source for drivers decades ago. They focus on reflex/sealed speakers with very few horn-loaded drivers for bass applications. These drivers were running neck and neck with Electrovoice & JBL in the late 80's to early 90's.

Eminence. They focus primarily on reflex/sealed type drivers. So, you are very limited if you choose not to use their drivers in a conventional enclosure.

Celestion. They are no longer the UK company you probably are fond of. They are now part of a company in China and are changing their whole line of woofers based on that merger. The majority of their older woofers are designed for horn-loaded cabinets with very minimum for reflex/sealed enclosures.

The Eighteen Sound 18 LW 1400 is what you are looking for. It is a middle of the road driver so it works well not only in horn boxes but reflex cabinets as well. It also offers the same xmax from drivers costing two, three times the amount.

Best Regards,    
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Elliot

Douglas Anderson

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2007, 05:45:51 am »

Thanks for the info Bob.  I have a brother in CT who is also looking for speakers.  I was wondering where were you able to listen to the B&C speakers?  If it's not too far from New Haven maybe he can take a drive and take a listen for himself!!
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Douglas Anderson

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2007, 06:32:35 am »

[/quote]


Hello Douglas.

I've gone through most of the brands you are eying years ago.

Precision Devices. The price it would cost you to import them from the UK to the States, you could find a better speaker within that price point (Speaker + Shipping).

18 Sound. This company developed when RCF stopped offering their raw woofers to the public and, solely devoted their services to EAW/Mackie. A very good brand. If I remember correctly, some of the early designers of RCF are now there.

B&C. They became popular when RCF stopped offering speakers to companies like Yorkville and such. It was the closest alternative available at the time. And it's because of that, their popularity grew.

RCF. This was EAW's main source for drivers decades ago. They focus on reflex/sealed speakers with very few horn-loaded drivers for bass applications. These drivers were running neck and neck with Electrovoice & JBL in the late 80's to early 90's.

Eminence. They focus primarily on reflex/sealed type drivers. So, you are very limited if you choose not to use their drivers in a conventional enclosure.

Celestion. They are no longer the UK company you probably are fond of. They are now part of a company in China and are changing their whole line of woofers based on that merger. The majority of their older woofers are designed for horn-loaded cabinets with very minimum for reflex/sealed enclosures.

The Eighteen Sound 18 LW 1400 is what you are looking for. It is a middle of the road driver so it works well not only in horn boxes but reflex cabinets as well. It also offers the same xmax from drivers costing two, three times the amount.

Best Regards,    [/quote]

Thanks for the info Elliott.  As far as price it looks like its between the B&C and the 18 Sound.  There is a popular Pro Audio store in New York (unsure of forum rules so left unnamed) who sells 12 different 18" speakers.  They rated there top 7 best sellers as:
1. Eminence Kilomax Pro-18A
2. Selenium 18WS600
3. 18 Sound 18LW1400
4. Eminence Omega Pro-18A
5. Peavey 18 LOW MAX
6. RCF L18P300
7. Eminence Sigma PRO-18A-2

The B&C 18TBX100 which is also sold there was unrated along with 4 other speakers (B&C, Peavey, RCF, Selenium).

Anyone familiar with the Selenium?

I checked out another speaker site who I believe is based in Illinois or Michigan and of all the various brands that they sell the only two that were out of stock were from the Fane Colossus series?  Have they been discontinued or are they that popular?

One last thing, I notice these new speakers have ridiculous power handling capabilities, 1500w, 2400 watts.  Back in the day 8 ohm speakers were the standard and ratings were 400w - 600w.  In order to power these monsters is 4 ohm speakers more suitable than buying the 8 ohm versions?  Are there any drawbacks to using 4 ohm speakers besides reaching the amplifier 2 ophm limits quicker when used in multiples?
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Elliot Thompson

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2007, 08:10:44 am »

The  B&C 18TBX100 is more suited for a reflex enclosure and less suited for a horn. Comparing the two ( B&C 18TBX100 versus 18 Sound 18 LW 1400) you will get a overall better response using the Eighteen Sound oppose the B&C in a horn-loaded cabinet. If it were a reflex enclosure, the B&C would outshine the Eighteen Sound by a slight margin providing you are using the optimum cabinet size.

You need to decide what you are trying to accomplish here and, not worry about who's the top rated driver. Those ratings could be based on anything which more than likely has nothing to do with the box you are using in question.

There are certain principals in which you need to abide to achieve the sound you are aiming for. With that being said, I recommended the 18 Sound because you mentioned a Scoop which I assumed you were planning to house the woofer in. If you are looking at some other design, then you need to tell us what kind of design is it to find the best suited driver for the cabinet in question.  

Bare in mind, old outdated boxes pretty much required certain drivers to deliver optimum performance. This applies to all boxes btw. Once you put a driver that does not meet the cabinets criteria, you will almost always achieve unsatisfied results.

Out of your list (Providing we are talking about old 18 inch Scoops) you could look at Eminence Omega and Sigma at that's pretty much it. Although, the 18 Sound 18 LW 1400 would still be your best choice.

The wattage increase is a matter of marketing today versus yesterday. Since everyone is yearning for higher wattage woofers they are rated less conservative today than yesterday. So the older drivers could indeed handle more power. Providing you are not overdriving the amplifier in the process.

There is a science behind amplifier-loudspeaker integration. If you are the type that must clip your amps just for the sake of clipping them, you will find yourself reconing woofers often. If you have ample amount of SPL (which comes from using multiple subs), you'll find yourself not even thinking about overdriving your woofers to the point of extinction.

As four 4 ohm woofers. They are pretty popular in home/car audio scene where you want to get the most power out of a single driver. In the sound reinforcement business more is always better considering we are not providing sound in a living room much less a backseat of a car.

Best Regards,
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2007, 09:57:29 am »

Douglas Anderson wrote on Wed, 26 December 2007 05:45

Thanks for the info Bob.  I have a brother in CT who is also looking for speakers.  I was wondering where were you able to listen to the B&C speakers?  If it's not too far from New Haven maybe he can take a drive and take a listen for himself!!


Douglas,
There was a local band using the B&C as replacements in the cabinets they were using that I had listened to. For your's and your brothers purposes I would contact Charlie Tappa of Pro Sound Service located in Braintree, MA. Charlie is by far the largest distributor of B&C and JBL that I am aware of. He keeps tons of the product in stock, has great prices, and if you talk with him he'll take the box you're planning on using and spec. out the correct driver for you. I am no longer an Eminence fan. I have a number of their 18s in the basement all packaged nicely for use as spares if ever needed, but never really liked the tone/sound from their 18s. One point I'll make is that Neo drivers need to be well cooled. Excessive heat will suck the life from a Neo driver, demagnitizing the motor assembly. Be sure you meet the mfg. specs for cooling, especially the clearence needed behind the speaker as Neo speakers tend to be longer/deeper than non-Neo speakers. Good luck with your search.
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Bennett Prescott

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2007, 01:39:07 pm »

Elliot Thompson wrote on Wed, 26 December 2007 08:10

The wattage increase is a matter of marketing today versus yesterday. Since everyone is yearning for higher wattage woofers they are rated less conservative today than yesterday. So the older drivers could indeed handle more power. Providing you are not overdriving the amplifier in the process.

I'm sure there have been no technological advances allowing higher heat dissipation in the interim. Rolling Eyes

Two drivers with equal T/S parameters and equal sensitivity in the same box, the one with the higher power handling will have a higher max output. That doesn't mean "it needs more power", it means you can GIVE it more power, though.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2007, 02:29:53 pm »

[quote title=Bennett Prescott wrote on Wed, 26 December 2007 13:39
Two drivers with equal T/S parameters and equal sensitivity in the same box, the one with the higher power handling will have a higher max output. That doesn't mean "it needs more power", it means you can GIVE it more power, though.[/quote]

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who will not buy a particular product because it can handle more power.  They say they can't afford an amp that size and therefore want to go with a lower power rated product, because they can afford an amp for that loudspeaker.  So if it was simply rated lower, then they would but it Rolling Eyes

Sensitivity (or any other spec) NEVER enters into their thinking. Shocked
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