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Author Topic: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)  (Read 38074 times)

Douglas Anderson

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Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« on: December 23, 2007, 04:51:50 pm »

First off, I would like to say Hi to everyone hear on ProSoundWeb.  Just found this wonderful site a few days ago and I finally completed the registration process (problems with email confirmation - had to contact the webmaster).  

There is so much wealth of knowledge on here it is amazing.  I don't think there is another site like this on Earth.  If there are other intelligent beings out there I'm sure they must be as fanatical about there music as we are.

Anyway I'm trying to put together a sound system but I'm not as upto-date with the loudspeaker side of things like I used to be.  I pretty much have the analog processors that I need (welcome opinions on the digital all-in-ones such as the DBXs).  I have amps (QSC and CROWN).  Not much has changed in the AMP business, QSC, CROWN, and CREST still run things (right?)!

I've used JBL 2445J/2380 for tops, EV DL 12x or EV 12L Pro Line for mids, and JBL 2225H, EV 18B Pro Line, and EV EVX 180 for bass/sub woofers in the past.  In trying to put together a 3-way system what would you guys (and maybe a few ladies) recommend for Horn/Drivers, midrange/mid bass, and bass/sub woofers?

I've always preferred constructing cabinets as opposed to buying ready made-ready loaded.  I'll be playing Reggae, R&B, Soul, Pop, and Country music (mostly indoors but occasionally outdoors)so I have no real preference as far as whether they are more suited for reflex, horn-loaded, or combination cabinets.

If anyone have or know anyone with detailed cabinet plans for the EV SH1810L-ER reverse sub scoop cabinet please get in touch with me.
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peter.golde

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2007, 04:55:43 pm »

Try here
http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/

Also in the archives on the EV website they have plans for most of their old TL reflex cabs and horn loaded bass.
http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Builders%20Plans/
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Douglas Anderson

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2007, 09:12:55 pm »

Thanks Peter.  Didn't find what I was looking for but I did locate the loudspeaker cabinet builder who made some cabinets for me in 1989 when I was spinning records in London, England.  

He seems to have gotten real famous in the biz.  Goes by the name of "SHORTMAN".
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Greg Cameron

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2007, 10:02:35 pm »

Douglas Anderson wrote on Sun, 23 December 2007 13:51

I've always preferred constructing cabinets as opposed to buying ready made-ready loaded.  I'll be playing Reggae, R&B, Soul, Pop, and Country music (mostly indoors but occasionally outdoors)so I have no real preference as far as whether they are more suited for reflex, horn-loaded, or combination cabinets.


Unless you're hellbent on building your own boxes, you might want to reconsider. Things in general have improved immensely with off the shelf boxes compared to the late 80's/early 90's. For what it will cost you in time and materials to build you own boxes, you can usually get good to excellent performing boxes at many levels. This was not the case back in '89 where choices were limited and so was quality. Virtually every aspect of speaker design has improved including box design, materials, drivers, horns, amplification and processing. Even some of the small plastic boxes can run circles around the larger clunky boxes of the 80's in overall performance and value. I'd highly recommend throwing out some info as to the size of rooms and crowds you plan on covering and solicit some advice on what might work and what other people are using. Of course, an idea on budget is always helpful...

Greg

Edit: SP
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Douglas Anderson

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2007, 04:14:10 pm »

Greg Cameron wrote on Sun, 23 December 2007 22:02

Douglas Anderson wrote on Sun, 23 December 2007 13:51

I've always preferred constructing cabinets as opposed to buying ready made-ready loaded.  I'll be playing Reggae, R&B, Soul, Pop, and Country music (mostly indoors but occasionally outdoors)so I have no real preference as far as whether they are more suited for reflex, horn-loaded, or combination cabinets.


Unless you're hellbent on building your own boxes, you might want to reconsider. Things in general have improved immensely with off the shelf boxes compared to the late 80's/early 90's. For what it will cost you in time and materials to build you own boxes, you can usually get good to excellent performing boxes at many levels. This was not the case back in '89 where choices were limited and so was quality. Virtually every aspect of speaker design has improved including box design, materials, drivers, horns, amplification and processing. Even some of the small plastic boxes can run circles around the larger clunky boxes of the 80's in overall performance and value. I'd highly recommend throwing out some info as to the size of rooms and crowds you plan on covering and solicit some advice on what might work and what other people are using. Of course, an idea on budget is always helpful...

Greg

Edit: SP


I'll be playing mostly Reggae and R&B so that chest thumping bass in the 50 - 100 hz range is required.  I already have couple double 18 vented cabinets with 600 watt JBL speakers so I guess I'll probably need to go with some kind of bent/folded horn or scoop design to carry the sound to a audience of say 300 people in a nice size hall (or outdoors).

As for budget, I'd say I'm willing to spend around $275 for each raw bass/sub speaker.  They'd be powered by QSC RMX line amps (1850HD, 2450, and 4050HD).

Have anyone on this side of the waters (US) heard of PRECISION DEVICES (PD), 18 Sound, and B&C speakers?  They seem to be very popular in England where the people are fanatics about designing and building their own cabinets.  What do you guys think about Eminence, RCF, and Celestions?    

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Tate_Tullis

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2007, 08:49:36 pm »

Douglas Anderson wrote on Mon, 24 December 2007 15:14

Greg Cameron wrote on Sun, 23 December 2007 22:02

Douglas Anderson wrote on Sun, 23 December 2007 13:51

I've always preferred constructing cabinets as opposed to buying ready made-ready loaded.  I'll be playing Reggae, R&B, Soul, Pop, and Country music (mostly indoors but occasionally outdoors)so I have no real preference as far as whether they are more suited for reflex, horn-loaded, or combination cabinets.


Unless you're hellbent on building your own boxes, you might want to reconsider. Things in general have improved immensely with off the shelf boxes compared to the late 80's/early 90's. For what it will cost you in time and materials to build you own boxes, you can usually get good to excellent performing boxes at many levels. This was not the case back in '89 where choices were limited and so was quality. Virtually every aspect of speaker design has improved including box design, materials, drivers, horns, amplification and processing. Even some of the small plastic boxes can run circles around the larger clunky boxes of the 80's in overall performance and value. I'd highly recommend throwing out some info as to the size of rooms and crowds you plan on covering and solicit some advice on what might work and what other people are using. Of course, an idea on budget is always helpful...

Greg

Edit: SP


I'll be playing mostly Reggae and R&B so that chest thumping bass in the 50 - 100 hz range is required.  I already have couple double 18 vented cabinets with 600 watt JBL speakers so I guess I'll probably need to go with some kind of bent/folded horn or scoop design to carry the sound to a audience of say 300 people in a nice size hall (or outdoors).

As for budget, I'd say I'm willing to spend around $275 for each raw bass/sub speaker.  They'd be powered by QSC RMX line amps (1850HD, 2450, and 4050HD).

Have anyone on this side of the waters (US) heard of PRECISION DEVICES (PD), 18 Sound, and B&C speakers?  They seem to be very popular in England where the people are fanatics about designing and building their own cabinets.  What do you guys think about Eminence, RCF, and Celestions?    





ive been impressed with those three. Their good choice's in my book.
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Bennett Prescott

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2007, 09:08:44 pm »

Some of the finest manufacturers in the world use B&C speakers. Very Happy
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SteveKirby

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2007, 02:27:15 pm »

Check out my thread about replacing EVM Pro Lines and DL18MT's with 18Sound drivers.  Absolutely no comparison.  While there are some great classic drivers out there from EV and JBL, the improvement in understanding of motor structures, cone materials and manufacturing techniques has made those classics not worth the trouble any more.  They are limited in power handling and sound quality compared to modern drivers.

RCF/18Sound/B&C/Beyma are all very popular drivers with folks who build the pro level cabs.

I still think that you can save a few bucks building cabs, but you can't factor in your engineering time, or it is definitely a losing proposition.  And in a lot of cases, you can't match the engineering resources of a big company.  

You probably don't have the test facilities, equipment, or the time and money to try 10 different drivers in each bandpass.  Most home builders have to research the best they can, buy the parts and hope for the best.  If drivers sounded exactly like their specs, this might be fine, but they don't, so success is often a matter of luck.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2007, 06:28:52 pm »

SteveKirby wrote on Tue, 25 December 2007 14:27

Check out my thread about replacing EVM Pro Lines and DL18MT's with 18Sound drivers.  Absolutely no comparison.  While there are some great classic drivers out there from EV and JBL, the improvement in understanding of motor structures, cone materials and manufacturing techniques has made those classics not worth the trouble any more.  They are limited in power handling and sound quality compared to modern drivers.

RCF/18Sound/B&C/Beyma are all very popular drivers with folks who build the pro level cabs.

I still think that you can save a few bucks building cabs, but you can't factor in your engineering time, or it is definitely a losing proposition.  And in a lot of cases, you can't match the engineering resources of a big company.  

You probably don't have the test facilities, equipment, or the time and money to try 10 different drivers in each bandpass.  Most home builders have to research the best they can, buy the parts and hope for the best.  If drivers sounded exactly like their specs, this might be fine, but they don't, so success is often a matter of luck.


Steve,
You can't be serious with the above statement concerning EV and JBL. It was JBL that led the way with Neo, dual voice coils and heat dissipation, and EV still has very respectable products in this line of drivers.

Doug,
After a near 6 month period of testing and research while I looked for 18" drivers it came down to three (3) manufacturers whose drivers met my criteria. They were 18 Sound, B&C, and JBL. I had the chance to audition and listen to each driver I was interested in. My final choice was between B&C and JBL.

The two speakers were the JBL 2242H and the B&C 18TBX100. If I had set a particular price range then I would have chosen the B&C. Since I was not restricted by budget my choice was the JBL 2242H. Links to both are below.

The RCF drivers were taken off of the list quickly after a discussion with a distributor who had dropped the line due to massive problems with the line. Mostly with structural failures such as magnets breaking off of the spiders, etc.. The Beyma was a good choice, Celestion not even close, Eminence was not a contender.

The B&C drivers are within your budget. I suggest you take a good look at that manufacturer. I fully agree with Bennett on this subject. Good luck!

http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=1&am p;id_descrizione=2&prodotto=15

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2242.pdf


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SteveKirby

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Re: Advice on raw loudspeakers (old skool vs new skool)
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2007, 07:23:44 pm »

Bob, The thread was nu skool vs. old school.  I took that and the comments about EV ProLine to mean older EVM or D130 type speakers.  Which can not compare with newer ones from any of the serious manufacturers.  Yes, EV and JBL make modern drivers as well, some of the best.  The OP was asking how other brands he hadn't heard of before compared to the classics.

I would definitely put a 2242 or modern EVX up against a B&C or 18Sound.  At that level, it's about variations in performance and cost (the EV and JBL having a cost premium which is probably warrented by being the top of the class in performance)  Any of these would wipe out an EVM or D130.
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