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Author Topic: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!  (Read 44638 times)

Brandon G Romanowski

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2007, 02:34:57 pm »

     By apples and oranges you must mean subs with DSP and subs without DSP.

I guess its just low end though. right Evan?  Rolling Eyes
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Brandon G. Romanowski
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Dan Kok

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2007, 02:40:05 pm »

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 12:46

brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00

    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.


Apples to oranges man.

Show me processor settings for these subs, oh wait, their arent any! Rolling Eyes




Evan


For TH-115s, how about here:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/Danley%20TH-115%20Spec%20 Sheet_r2.pdf
where it says:
"Recommended signal processing: 20 Hz highpass @ 24 dB/Octave"
- and -
"Crossover: Low pass 100 Hz"

If you contact them they say:
"Hi pass @ 25 Hz 24 dB/Octave Butterworth, low pass is contingent on your tops, but I'd use the same crossover/slope. We usually roll them off at 60-70 Hz but they are fine up to 100-150 Hz.   The subs are flat so no equalization is required but you can adjust to taste."

The TH-115s have rising frequency response starting at 80 Hz.  Others here have mentioned that they hear a "honk" at the upper end.  I high pass at 25 Hz and cross at 75 Hz as per a recommendation from Langston Holland.

Disclaimer: I own four TH-115s and I admit I'm disappointed to read Evan's lukewarm review.  I don't know how to get from "I was pretty disappointed with this one." to "But, with that said, they sound great. They went the lowest out of any single sub, and sounded the best by far."  I also wonder if there would have been so much concern for "mid-bass" (arguably, not what a subwoofer is for) had the tops been a model without a known mid-bass deficiency.

I'm sure the event was fun and I apologize in advance for the wrath this will likely bring down, I'm just trying to understand the results.

--
Dan
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Phil Lewandowski

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2007, 02:45:57 pm »

Dan Kok wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 14:40



Disclaimer: I own four TH-115s and I admit I'm disappointed to read Evan's lukewarm review.  I don't know how to get from "I was pretty disappointed with this one." to "But, with that said, they sound great. They went the lowest out of any single sub, and sounded the best by far."  I also wonder if there would have been so much concern for "mid-bass" (arguably, not what a subwoofer is for) had the tops been a model without a known mid-bass deficiency.

I'm sure the event was fun and I apologize in advance for the wrath this will likely bring down, I'm just trying to understand the results.

--
Dan




Hey!
I also was impressed mby the 115 but not as impressed as I thought I would be!  It stood out but not as much as I thought it would.
I think it would have helped to have a second to get the same 2 to 2 although 2 would just make the Danley's louder and wouldn't have much effect beside that. We did do comparisons of 1 Danley to 1 of everything else and like I said it didn't stand out as much as I thought it would! I think that is what Evan meabt by his statements!

Take Care!
Phil Lewandowski
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Scott Smith

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2007, 02:53:14 pm »

brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00

    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.

Testing proceedures can certainly be an issue of debate.

I personally prefer the method of giving each sub the same exact signal, and see how they actually compare.  While crude, it would tell a fair story.  Of course, as we know, many cabs will require some DSP or EQ'ing to bring them to life, so more advanced testing would have accomplished this.

There are so many ways the subs could be compared.  Comparing 1 sub against 2 doesn't seem fair, however if the subs are small and would likely be used in pairs per side, then this may fair after all.

I would think a sweep from 20hz-90hz with db measurements would be the most accurate.

It's clear some did better in the low end, and some in the upper end.  Higher output seemed to go hand in hand with cab size.  Everything seems to be a trade off.

What would be most important to me would be the most output with the least amount of power, with size and price considerations.  Thanks for the test results.
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Dave Barker

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2007, 02:54:49 pm »

I also own 6 of the TH-115's (OK so I might be slightly prejudiced) and was at the shootout.  I think that where the Danleys truly do shine and something that we never did was put the gas to any of the cabinets.  I do believe this would have revealed some things about some of the cabinets that we didn't hear.  One thing about the Danley's is that when pushed they just sound better, they don't break up they just get louder.  

During the test the single box was at a lower overall level but it also went noticeably lower then any of the other boxes and had what I felt anyway the best and cleanest sound.  Whether 2100.00 per box is a lot, I don't know, I bought mine after the NY shootout where they throttled boxes that cost 2 & 3 times as much.

The Lab Subs are amazing boxes though.  They are efficient, powerful and huge.  I remember then from at Evans last get together shaking tiles off the ceiling.

Pretty much the same feelings on the other boxes as what has been expressed.

Thanks again to Evan for putting everything together and to Jim for hospitality.

Dave Barker

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Vic Cowles

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2007, 02:56:23 pm »

Thanks for posting this shootout and your opinions.  I am guilty of questioning peoples opinions on this board. After all Evan, I like Growlers how come your not gonna buy em???? I'm going to try and change that. The why didn't you do that and the why didn't you do this thing is BS.  This shootout was done the way it was. Everyone there has an opinion.  If I want to test differently I'll set it up myself. However, I won't.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results! Not so easy
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2007, 02:57:03 pm »

Let's look at the facts.  If you were to do a "proper alignment" with the full range box-exactly how would YOU do it.

The only way would be to have a go bit of time and a bunch of DSP presets that you would switch in as needed.

That could be done-with time, except when you started putting up several subs together and the full range box (which was just used for reference sub level was higher (level wise) than it should have been anyway) is a different physical distance from each box.

Since it was a SUB listening party, what level would you run the subs at?  If you make them flat with the top-then that is no fun Laughing .  So if you are going to have the subs a bit higher than the top-exactly what would that number be?

The plot thickens that since you would be using a DSP with alignment, then the difference in sensitivity of the various cabinets would be lost.  That can be both a good and bad thing.

It is good if they all have the same output level (or very close) which would allow you to hear the actual tonal differences between cabinets, rather than the added SPL of some cabinets clouding up what you are hearing.

It is bad because the sensitivity is completely gone and all cabinets would appear to have the same level with a given input.

It is easy to argue both ways.

And you also  have to keep moving the top box around to sit on top of the particular subs-which gives various different listening positions.  We were switching cabinets and if somebody had to keep running around with the top cabinet, it would again throw things off.

And if you were to use a DSP, do you start to correct for certain things in the particular cabinets response?  Like a boost/cut here and there, but what the cabinet actually "sounds" like, get lost.

What are the limits of what would be done as far as "alignment".

I personally had no problems with the way the DSP was setup-Jim choose the parameters.

It was more of a "see what each cabinet sounds like by itself" NOT a "see what each cabinet souunds like when aligned to the top box" kind of thing, because everybody used different tops, so the various alignments would be different for each user.

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E. Lee Dickinson

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2007, 03:01:12 pm »

brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00

    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.


I think you should take the test for what it's worth. As someone who is just reading the reviews and wasn't there, I feel that this was a perfectly appropriate Lounge-level test. While there are plenty of us with nice amps and nice DSP, a significant portion of the Lounge folk are going to be using analog crossovers.

I view these tests in this manner: What would happen if I swapped out my subs, without doing a complete system overhaul? This is a very useful perspective for me, since our systems go out the door in a dozen different configurations.

"All things being equal, here is how they rate."

We expect subs to sound better with proper settings, amps with just the right power rating, in different cluster sizes and room positions.  That's what we get when we tweak and optimize and usually spend more money to build the system up around the cabinets we select.

This series of listen tests was a baseline comparison between models.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2007, 03:46:20 pm »

That was the intention of the shootout.

I will also add that there was no attempt to compensate for different wattage because of different impedances.

The dual driver subs that were present were the labs and the Peavey 2x18".  So people have to remember that twice the "wattage" was "applied" to those cabinets.  Everything was switched using the same voltage-ie input signal level.

And also when listening to subs (at this level of play) is how many can you hookup to a particular amplifier.  You could hook up more of the single driver subs-resulting in a 6-12dB increase over a single cabinet for a given amplifier size.  

When evaluating subs- it is about several things.  Sound, how many can you transport, how many can you hookup to existing amplifiers, and the TOTAL of all of these is how loud will it get?

It is NOT just about a single sub, unless that is all you intend to use.  So many variables.
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Danley Sound Labs

Steve Hurt

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Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2007, 05:21:58 pm »

I've really enjoyed reading this thread!  

Being able to read people's comments on subs I'm very familiar with (Growlers) helps me understand their comments on other subs.  Very glad the Growlers were included!  fwiw, I agree with a lot of comments on the Growlers (both the positive and not so positive ones)

For instance:
evan  -edited-

 a lot of ass for their size ....  but not a lot of impact
..... very "musical .....  lacked impact from the kick hits
they do pack a good amount of output for their size.

and
Matt Vivlamore -edited-

 ... most of the time it couldn’t reproduce the over-riding kick over the bas guitar.

and
Phil Lewandowski edited-

I found these very impressive for their size! They went lower than I expected and did have some good low punch.....


Even though I wasn't at the shootout, my feelings about the Growlers are similar in most areas.  My $.02:

Loud for their size - Lots of low end - Sound good
Need tiltback corner cutout and wheels (like the UCSI wheel design)
Needs rubbber feet and pole cups (I added feet and pole cups.  Growlers are available new w/pole cups)
I mentioned having some trouble getting the kick out front in a thread a while back and it was (correctly) suggested that properly time aligning them helps this a lot.
Still, I agree that the Growler kik is more "pillow-y" than a 728 double 18 front loaded kick.

And then there was this comment:
evan

However, in singles, the output just disappears.


I use them in singles all the time and they are more than loud enough for the job so I guess I just need less output.
If the sound that I'm getting (and is more than enough for the job) is "dissapeared", then ..... well ........ .......
I really HAVE to try them center coupled some time just for fun!!! Smile

Thanks for doing this shootout!!!
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