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[Jon Waller]

Evan, from your night photo, looking at the reflection of the lights on the side of the boxes, and with your statement that the picture was taken from in front of FOH, it looks like the mix position was on axis with the top box in the line!  Not a very optimum mix position.  In my experience the SPL of a line really falls off when you are on axis with the end boxes, at least on the high end.  Perhaps the line should have been flown higher, and/or aimed at least a few degrees higher for better coverage in the back.

[Evan Kirkendall]

Dan Brown wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 19:58

Evan, You state that you and another engineer were in the limiters. If this is the case were these the XTA processors limiters or some comp/limiter at FOH? Also what do you think is "Ultra Loud"? Would you consider your SLS920 boxes "ultra loud"? I would say they can get pretty loud but sound like crap when they get that loud and aren't easy on the ears. Also if you feel like shows should be run in the 100dbA range then your ears are still young and you will learn. Anyway, for all accounts the Martin rigs are great and sound very good. EV Xlc is a decent rig although I have never heard one that I was totally happy with. sincerely, Dan Brown REACH Communications 612.207.1070

Hi Dan,
The Martin boxes are no slackers, but again, they just didnt seem to be a rock and roll box. I consider "ultra loud" being about to maintain 110dBA+ @ FOH. I consider the SLS920's ultra loud for small to medium venues. There is no way they could cover the crowds that the Martin arrays do. Mainly because of the limiting factor of how many sls920's you can run per side.

The production company had a laptop at FOH so you could watch over the XTA's limiters. Los Lonely Boy's engineer was slamming them pretty good at some points. I was not into the limiters hardly at all when I mixed on the W8L's.  I hit the sub limiters a few times, but that was it.

I will not comment on how loud I mix, as it is very subjective and their is no reason to argue that point. What you think is loud, may not be loud to others.

But, Ryan was looking for opinions on the boxes. I gave mine. Besides those 2 factors I like them as well, but I didnt want Ryan to think they were perfect boxes, as none are.

But, lets not turn this into another Adamson thread.




Evan

[Evan Kirkendall]

Also, another labster mixed on a W8cl rig at the same festival and had the same thoughts as me. Hopefully he will comment as well.





Evan

[Dan Brown]

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 19:43

Dan Brown wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 19:58 Evan, You state that you and another engineer were in the limiters. If this is the case were these the XTA processors limiters or some comp/limiter at FOH? Also what do you think is "Ultra Loud"? Would you consider your SLS920 boxes "ultra loud"? I would say they can get pretty loud but sound like crap when they get that loud and aren't easy on the ears. Also if you feel like shows should be run in the 100dbA range then your ears are still young and you will learn. Anyway, for all accounts the Martin rigs are great and sound very good. EV Xlc is a decent rig although I have never heard one that I was totally happy with. sincerely, Dan Brown REACH Communications 612.207.1070 Hi Dan, The Martin boxes are no slackers, but again, they just didnt seem to be a rock and roll box. I consider "ultra loud" being about to maintain 110dBA+ @ FOH. I consider the SLS920's ultra loud for small to medium venues. There is no way they could cover the crowds that the Martin arrays do. Mainly because of the limiting factor of how many sls920's you can run per side. The production company had a laptop at FOH so you could watch over the XTA's limiters. Los Lonely Boy's engineer was slamming them pretty good at some points. I was not into the limiters hardly at all when I mixed on the W8L's.  I hit the sub limiters a few times, but that was it. I will not comment on how loud I mix, as it is very subjective and their is no reason to argue that point. What you think is loud, may not be loud to others. But, Ryan was looking for opinions on the boxes. I gave mine. Besides those 2 factors I like them as well, but I didnt want Ryan to think they were perfect boxes, as none are. But, lets not turn this into another Adamson thread. Evan

Evan,

I agree that everyone's definition of loud is different.
I used to mix shows a lot at 100dba at FOH average.

However I have realised in the last couple years this is not everyones cup of tea.  In fact even young people prefer it not to be this loud even at rock and roll shows.

I just did a CD release concert on saturday for 1200-1300 people indoors at averaging 90dbA at FOH about 115ft. back. I peaked at 93-95dbA average at FOH. Rig was JBL Vertec with some delays for the rear of the room.  It felt pretty good and had several people come up and tell me they loved it.  The venue guy gave me a hard time becuase all the other engineers come in and crank it up running 100dbA plus.

This was very comfortable volume and no one had any problems hearing the evening.

To each his own but I tend to lean twoard Dave Rat's side.

Our hearing is not forever try to save it.

OK....back to the original thread.

Ryan go with the Martin

sincerely,
Dan Brown
REACH Communications

[Tim McCulloch]

Dan-

We do lots of the HedPE, Staind, Breaking Benjamin, Black Label Society type things.  Most of the time, FOH (85' from the PA) is around 108 dbA or more.  The high end (6k up) is blistering.

10 years ago, the problem was keeping BEs from blowing up subs.  The subs are now fairly bullet-proof now, but BEs have since moved on to taking out HF.

Shows are MUCH louder than they were 10 or even 5 years ago, and I see no signs of that abating on it's own.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Dan Brown]

Tim McCulloch wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 20:32

Dan- We do lots of the HedPE, Staind, Breaking Benjamin, Black Label Society type things.  Most of the time, FOH (85' from the PA) is around 108 dbA or more.  The high end (6k up) is blistering. 10 years ago, the problem was keeping BEs from blowing up subs.  The subs are now fairly bullet-proof now, but BEs have since moved on to taking out HF. Shows are MUCH louder than they were 10 or even 5 years ago, and I see no signs of that abating on it's own. Have fun, good luck. Tim Mc

Tim,

I understand this.
Luckily this is not my normal clientel that I mix for.
I do run 100-105dbA at FOH for Festivals wiht R&R artist.

To each his own...I don't really care what others run but I know my ears are not so happy with that volume.  Some frequencies can certainly hurt more than others.
Forget I said anything.

sincerely,
Dan Brown

[Tim McCulloch]

Dan Brown wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 20:41

To each his own...I don't really care what others run but I know my ears are not so happy with that volume.  Some frequencies can certainly hurt more than others. Forget I said anything. sincerely, Dan Brown

Dan-

I'm secretly envious of lower SPL shows, really!  Even with plugs my ears still ring... maybe I should get an answering service...

I'd much rather mix theatre or jazz, or orchestral shows.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Dick Rees]

Yes, it depends on program content as well.  A good jazz quintet at 105 and a rock 'n roll band at 105 might well be perceived differently as the jazz group simply has more defined voicing...usually.....and r 'n' r is thicker in the mix.  I have no scientific measurements for this, only my personal take on it.  I think it comes down to the cleaner the mix, the less painful it is at high spl.  Ya think?

[Mike Babcock]

Ryan

I did an arena tour with another labster as our system tech with the Martin W8LC.

It is a rock and roll box

Properly deployed with an appropriate number of boxes I feel it sounds slightly better than a properly deployed V-Dosc rig.

We never ran out of headroom, never clipped an amp, the signal lights on the Labs were barely flashing at concert level, no matter if it was a smaller 4000 seat arena or a sold out madison square gardens show. It was never honky sounding thanks to our system tech.

The EV XLC...I agree that it never really sounds right.

I do see more riders with EV on it than Martin which I feel is a shame, but both are second tier companies when it comes to line arrays.

[A Man]

Mike Babcock wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 23:20

Ryan I did an arena tour with another labster as our system tech with the Martin W8LC. It is a rock and roll box Properly deployed with an appropriate number of boxes I feel it sounds slightly better than a properly deployed V-Dosc rig. We never ran out of headroom, never clipped an amp, the signal lights on the Labs were barely flashing at concert level, no matter if it was a smaller 4000 seat arena or a sold out madison square gardens show. It was never honky sounding thanks to our system tech. The EV XLC...I agree that it never really sounds right. I do see more riders with EV on it than Martin which I feel is a shame, but both are second tier companies when it comes to line arrays.

I have to agree. The Martin W8L / 8LC has the best low mid 'punch' of the  all the line arrays I've used. (and I've been on pretty much all of the major's offerings)
Definitely my first choice on a rock gig.
A+ if Delicate is providing.  

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