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[John Chiara]

Yngve Hoeyland wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 18:01

Eh, okay, now this may seem to be getting a little more heated than I had hoped for.

That's what happens when you try and mix studio and live here..some get boogiddy. I have many times employed a main buss comp in small and large clubs in order to add the "glue" to the mix that I rarely if ever hear in a live mix..largely because it is a studio technique that most don't know or try. I recently recalled a story about a small underpowered system for a loud rock band in a very live room and without the Compellor/Dominator across the mains it would have been a disaster..as it was it was on the brink but worked and sounded pretty good..within the dynamic window that I had created..which is what you are speaking of..I believe. Either way..whatever works is good.

[Dick Rees]

I use TCElectronics IIIC (out of production now) inserted on the main buss and use it if needed.  I do a lot of gigs where you have 6-8 acts of different types all in a row with 15 minute changes.  Lets me get the sound I want regardless of whether it's bluegrass, jazz, rock or a capella doowop.

[Jim Ferrari]

I'm with Eric (and many others) on this. If you've got an input that doesn't sound right you could use some channel strip eq to fix it NOT adjust the eq on the mains! Deal with each input by itself - if it needs compression, compress it! Don't put a compressor on the entire mix. If you adjust each of the inputs properly then there is never a need (in live mix) to squash the entire mix. If you feel you need a safety net then put a limiter on the main outputs if it makes you feel good. Live music is SUPPOSED to be dynamic otherwise you could just play the band's CD and save the trouble of setting up their equipment. I know you want to experiment and play around with MB compressors but the concept is flawed. Use them on the inputs not the output.

[John Chiara]

Jim Ferrari wrote on Sun, 30 September 2007 09:49

I'm with Eric (and many others) on this. If you've got an input that doesn't sound right you could use some channel strip eq to fix it NOT adjust the eq on the mains! Deal with each input by itself - if it needs compression, compress it! Don't put a compressor on the entire mix. If you adjust each of the inputs properly then there is never a need (in live mix) to squash the entire mix. If you feel you need a safety net then put a limiter on the main outputs if it makes you feel good. Live music is SUPPOSED to be dynamic otherwise you could just play the band's CD and save the trouble of setting up their equipment. I know you want to experiment and play around with MB compressors but the concept is flawed. Use them on the inputs not the output.

The concept is not flawed if you are actively attempting a recording style live mix..it is the kind of tool that is used on the recording..it CAN be useful in a live situation. I am assuming that the operator knows how to "fix" any problems already. Live music is already dynamic because it is LIVE..I've never had to fight to keep a mix "live" sounding unless I have some guitarist with a crazy overprocessed sound thing going on. Like anything..the operator needs to be familiar with the process and the gear and mostly what you are trying to accomplish..your own personal "reference".. but I see many a live mix where the dynamics are too exaggerated and it loses the "glue" that many times helps. Even in small rooms where some instruments may not be loud through the mains...a little "spank" to the main system can help bring things together. Just my opinion and experience..YMMV. Great article by Carl Winkler in a mag last month..I swear he quoted some of my posts here for parts..and his point was..as is mine..the recorded version of a song is ALWAYS the listeners reference..so attempting to approach that is good..from a failiarity perspective..and usually if I want to recreate a certain "dish"...it only makes sense to follow a similar "recipe."  Never say never!..except to dating married women..

[Yngve Hoeyland]

Thanks for that John, my line of thought exactly. I have been doing some gigs lately for an artist whose album I just engineered, and the MB comp approach makes all the difference. I have been using MB's on groups as well, with great results. I'm not saying that the MB is what makes the concerts sound so good, but that it helps me make the live stuff sound more like the album does... In terms of what the MB actually does, we're not talking about heavy processing here, but maybe 3-4 dB reduction in lower bands at the most, less in the higher bands.

To Jim Ferrari and "all the others":
Obviously, I'm not suggesting that inserting an MB on the master O/P eliminates the need to work EQ and dynamics on individual strips. The MB is just the "icing on the cake" so to speak.


I have spoken to quite a few (live) engineers about this, and my general impression is that they don't get why you would want to do it. Maybe I'm just the village idiot, of maybe my approach to mixing is different (remember, I come from that darkest of all places, the studio). Either way, it works for me.

Another thing that puzzles me is that whereas most live engineers I speak to seem to think "how do we make this sound right", studio engineers seem to think "how can we make this sound better". A subtle difference, perhaps, but IMO an important one.

[Rasmus Rosenberg]

Hey Yngve,
I think that multiband compression (and dynamic eq) are some of the most "overlooked" tools that we have live. This is proberly because that there are not that many products, and not cheap products, that can do it well. But with the whole digital "revolution" its becomeing more acessable.
The big con's or negative things to be said about MB comp are not so differently than most otherthings, that is; some use it to fix something that is "broken" to start with. But thats the way it is with almost  everything in this biz. So as the others said always start with the inputs/outputs and get as long as you can there. Also they do take some time to tweak in.. and time is not some we have to much of

I think that its abit "wrong" to compare MB compression (and dynamic eq) with normal compression (or "fullrange compession" if thats the right frase) or "normal" Eq. MB comps are IMO much more powerful that normal comps, and alot harder to get your head arround. And its definetly not the same as putting a "normal" comp across the main buss or what ever.. Same IMO goes for dynamic Eq..They are other tools than EQ and "normal" compression.
I use MB comp alot when mixing, most on; Drum group, Bass, Acc, Vocals and main L-R. It makes me have more control and more IMO dynamic/musical interaction with whats comeing from the band.
If you want to check it out live i surgest that you try a TC eqstation. It has a 3 band MBcomp. They are fast and easy to get arround.  
Happy tweaking and let us know how its going
RAsmus
   

[Yngve Hoeyland]

Thanks for your thoughts and tips Rasmus, but I've already been doing this for some time as you may have missed in my previous reply. There's no going back for me.

The last couple of weeks I've been bringing along a TCE M6000 system that I use in the studio, and I am very familiar with it so I can get things going fast. Very nice piece of kit, although I'm looking for a less pricey unit. I want to demo it first though, and at least here in Norway it's hard to persuade retailers to let you take their gear out for a spin in the live environment what with all the dust, hard-handed riggers, beer etc...

I don't know why, but a lot of people seem scared off by MBC. Maybe this is because the concept is a bit harder to get your head around than fullrance comp., or because it's not a very  well-established element in live mixing? It's still a little more usual in the mixing studio, but for a very long time MBC's were toys exclusively used by mastering engineers. I can do some pretty neat live mixes without it, and although I haven't done the big arena stuff yet I'm guessing I've logged around 7-800 gigs (without MB) on the road so I'm not fresh in the field. I know the TC6000 inside out, and bringing it along with me for live work has helped me approach my friend the "studio sound". - And no, I'm not talking about achieving a 3dB dynamic range here. (I'm not into bubble gum pop.) The morale of all this ranting being - try it before you ditch it?

[Andy Peters]

Yngve Hoeyland wrote on Sun, 30 September 2007 08:36

I have spoken to quite a few (live) engineers about this, and my general impression is that they don't get why you would want to do it. Maybe I'm just the village idiot, of maybe my approach to mixing is different (remember, I come from that darkest of all places, the studio). Either way, it works for me.

One problem is that many records these days are mastered within a fraction of a dBFS of maximum loudness, and quite frankly, they sound like crap.  (Read all of the threads on the R/E/P side of things about this.)

So while the argument is that "people want thing to sound like the record," (or worse, the 128 kbps MP3 of the hit song) is probably true, we don't have the tools to do a live mix like that in real time, and why degrade your mix?  To be honest, I just don't like the sound of compression on the whole mix. especially when stage volume is a factor in the mix.  I've tried it and unless it's so minimal as to not be there, it sounds weird.  And if it's so minimal, why do it?

Quote:

Another thing that puzzles me is that whereas most live engineers I speak to seem to think "how do we make this sound right", studio engineers seem to think "how can we make this sound better". A subtle difference, perhaps, but IMO an important one.

Of course I always ask myself "what's wrong with this picture?" as I mix.  And when there's nothing wrong, I can work on making it better.  Sometimes I can't make it better: the musicians can be having a bad day, or the gear doesn't sound right, or all sorts of things that are beyond my control can happen.

It should be obvious why we do it this way: we don't have the luxury of overdubs and multiple takes and automated mixdown and comping several tracks into one and razor-blade edits.

And studio guys don't have the added bonus of mixing in rooms designed for basketball or unamplified burlesque shows through systems which define "compromise."  How would you like it if you put your studio into a truck after each day's work, then shlepped it across the state, set it up in a completely new and different environment, did a day's worth of mixing, then tear it down and do it again?

-a

PS: I know a bunch of guys who do both live sound and recording, and they excel at both because they approach the gigs with the proper attitude (meaning they realize that it's a live gig and not a recording session).  The problem is that you get studio guys who come in with a rack fulla high-dollar insertables and spend 45 minutes on the floor tom which never stops ringing.

[Yngve Hoeyland]

Andy:
First of all I have to say that I agree with everything you say.

Secondly, I want to defend myself and say that I do understand the differences between a live gig and a recording session, and approach them accordingly. I would never have even finished the vocal sound live with the same attention to detail expected in a studio environment. Acoustics is naturally also an important and limiting factor.

Most of the smaller gigs I do are in relatively "good" rooms and often with "quiet" music (acoustic jazz, pop etc). Delicate music, so to speak. I find that MBC works better for me in such settings than on bigger, rock-type productions, with regards to "getting the album sound" out of the PA. I'm not too sure whether I'm a fan of MB use on bigger and noiser things. But I'll find out soon enough.

[Dave Barnett]

Andy Peters wrote on Sun, 30 September 2007 13:16

The problem is that you get studio guys who come in with a rack fulla high-dollar insertables and spend 45 minutes on the floor tom which never stops ringing.

I'm amazed by BEs who can't make things happen FAST. Especially on drums.

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