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[Steve Payne]

The entire audio industry is founded upon the backs of independent outside the box thinkers that started off building stuff in their garages.  This is the rule and not the exception.  I am always on the lookout for new, different, better ways of doing things.
However, whenever someone brings a product to market that on the surface looks, smells and tastes like a dozen other products, BUT, it costs half the price or less than everyone else's, one question forms:  "How do they do that?"  A little poking usually reveals a not too flattering answer.

[SteveKirby]

It's the difference between innovative thinking and me-too copying.  A creative new wave guide, new alignment method, innovative rigging hardware, something like the Danley/Yorkville full width unity horn.  These are all things someone might dream up and build a prototype in their garage.  Then depending on how good the idea is in real life, and how entrepunerial they are, it may become a successful company/product.

But just getting a cabinet shop and machine shop to whack out an approximation of established design concepts turns the whole thing into a commodity enterprise.  Fortunatly (or unfortunately), unlike PC motherboards, there's a bit more to copying a line array.

[Tim Duffin]

Phil LaDue wrote on Mon, 31 March 2008 16:52

Scott Smith wrote on Mon, 31 March 2008 19:37 Tim Duffin wrote on Mon, 24 March 2008 04:53 ...I will not take my chances with anything that is not one of the top 5 brands... I can respect that statement if that is your choice, but if everyone thought like this, then people like Jeff would not be selling his popular new Growlers either.  I can't speak for TVI line-array products, but competition is the American way.   The free market is a great thing. If only prejudice against the little guy wasn't so rampant. Back in 1927 two guys opened a loudspeaker business on Santa Barbara Avenue in Los Angeles, California. Eventually that company became what is now known as JBL. Or how about that crazy organist that opened a music shop in Marissa Illinois?

Thats not exactly true.  You do not give JBL enough credit.  As far as Im concerned, JBL invented the entire concept of bass.  Nobody in the world had ever heard 50hz from a woofer until James B lansing invented the actual driver and the manufacturing process as well as the materials used to create a product that did something nobody thought was possible.  

T

[Randy Pence]

Tim Duffin wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 13:03

Thats not exactly true.  You do not give JBL enough credit.  As far as Im concerned, JBL invented the entire concept of bass.  Nobody in the world had ever heard 50hz from a woofer until James B lansing invented the actual driver and the manufacturing process as well as the materials used to create a product that did something nobody thought was possible.   T

this is siily.  If jbl was not the first, someone else would have been.  After feeling thunder, pipe organs, and whatever else that produced some shaking waves, it was just a matter of time before someone figured out how to reproduce it.

[Mike {AB} Butler]

Tim Duffin wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 07:03

Phil LaDue wrote on Mon, 31 March 2008 16:52 Scott Smith wrote on Mon, 31 March 2008 19:37 Tim Duffin wrote on Mon, 24 March 2008 04:53 ...I will not take my chances with anything that is not one of the top 5 brands... I can respect that statement if that is your choice, but if everyone thought like this, then people like Jeff would not be selling his popular new Growlers either.  I can't speak for TVI line-array products, but competition is the American way.   The free market is a great thing. If only prejudice against the little guy wasn't so rampant. Back in 1927 two guys opened a loudspeaker business on Santa Barbara Avenue in Los Angeles, California. Eventually that company became what is now known as JBL. Or how about that crazy organist that opened a music shop in Marissa Illinois? Thats not exactly true.  You do not give JBL enough credit.  As far as Im concerned, JBL invented the entire concept of bass.  Nobody in the world had ever heard 50hz from a woofer until James B lansing invented the actual driver and the manufacturing process as well as the materials used to create a product that did something nobody thought was possible.   T

And you're not giving JBL too much credit? There were sub-50 hz boxes from Altec, EV, and even RCA in that time period. Even Harry F. Olson's Accoustical Engineering shows sub- 50 Hz performance from cabinets, IIRC.
But to partly backup your claim, I do remember reading articles that give James Lansing credit for developing the first drivers that could handle more than the 30 minuscule watts that everyone else in the day was stopped at.
Regards,

[Mark Malone]

Brian, have you had a chance to put these boxes through its paces yet?  Just wondering what you think both passive and in biamp modes.

Thanks!!

[Brian Wynn]

Mark Malone wrote on Tue, 15 April 2008 09:37

Brian, have you had a chance to put these boxes through its paces yet?  Just wondering what you think both passive and in biamp modes. Thanks!!

Yes

I had the 2 x 10 box for about a week.  First thing I noticed coming out of the box was the rigging was badly damaged from a poorly designed shipping box.  Next I noticed the same problem with the grille.  At that point we fixed the rigging hardware with some hand tools which was very easy and kind of worried me because of the material is easily bent.  

Passive mode:
On a EV CP2200 power amp with some program music.  In passive mode we ran it pretty hard and found out quickly the horn was harsh around 2K and 4K so with a few notch's on the old 2231 EQ we got it sounding good.  It does get loud and stays clean up to 105dB (measured from about 1 meter).

BiAmp mode:
On a CP2200 power amp with a DR260 processor with program music again.  X over at 1.2K this is a guess because we were not provided any recommended points or had time to smaart the box.  EQ cuts were the same and we could squeeze 2 more dB out of it before it started to break up.

Construction:
In my opinion this is were this box suffers the most.  The rigging is very thin and poorly constructed.  The front rigging points were very hard to get to.  They slide down into the rigging cage to store when not in use.  We couldn't figure out how to extract them with out using a screw driver.  The rear rigging is a swing arm that stores in the rear of the box.  These are much easier to get at.  But they have a slotted hole for rear rigging pin to fit into.  Which makes it impossible to ground stack this box.  We did not see any paperwork in the box stating that the rigging was certified.  There was no rigging manual supplied.  At this point we removed the grille and one the 10" drivers.  We noticed that alot of the screws that secure the rigging to the box were cross threaded when they were installed.  An the X over looks very "Chinese" to me but it didn't say made in China from what I could tell.  The drivers had good sized magnets on them but didn't provide us with a make or model.  The NL4 connectors on the back of the box were from a generic manufacturer.

Pros:
Sounds Good with little EQ in Passive mode.
Sounds Better with little EQ in BiAmp mode.
Weight was about right for that size box.
Over sized rigging pins.
Price point.

Cons:
Poorly designed rigging hardware.
Poorly designed shipping box.
Use of Generic NL4 connectors.
No Ground stacking.

Conclusion:  This box fits into a price point that is almost non-exsistant in the linearray market place.  With a little creative thinking on the buyers part you could improve the rigging hardware and smaart the box to come up with a good solid preset.  At that point you would have yourself a good "bang for the buck" linaearray rig.  These would be perfect box's for the club installs and church pa systems.  If they were to be used on the road I would have ATA cases made for them or be very careful moving them around because of the rigging issues.  All in all I would say Buy them if your on a tight budget and want a linearray PA! We did not get a fly bar with the demo.

[David Baker (TVI Audio)]

Hello,

First of all, I would like to thank Brian for the honest product review of the C-210. I would like to add a couple of informational updates. The C-210 line array box that was sent was an older model prototype box that we had ready to send. With customer feedback, we have made some great updates on our newer version. Also, the C-210 array box was not inspected before it was sent. It was sent directly after being received from another customer who had taken it apart prior. If the screws were cross threaded, it was not originally that way. Knowing this, we will be more careful in the future to inspect before resending.

1. The fly hardware that was sent on this test unit is steel and has been tested to handle plenty of weight, but we have doubled the fly-hardware thickness on our newer models to give our customers what they would like. This is more for road durability then anything.

2. We now offer Neutrik / "Power-Con" on our powered boxes. The NL4 inputs are not Neutrik, but the are high quality. If our customer would like Neutrik and is willing to spend a little more money, we can make it happen.

3. Shipping a 75lb line array box Fed Ex Ground is not ideal in any cardboard packaging. We offer very high quality stackable flight cases with high quality locking casters for our line array boxes. We highly recommend these with every purchase. I am attaching a picture of one of our customer orders with cases. We get many single unit demo request and our customers pay the shipping, so to keep the shipping charges down for our customer, we use FedEx ground instead of freight.


4. We recently added polished steel thumb buttons that bolt into the steel hardware to make the hardware an easy slide design. Our prototype boxes did not have this feature. We are always working to improve our product and offer the very best product we can for a great price.

5. We are currently in the process of developing AIM Software for all of our line array boxes. Software engineers are on the task as we speak, and it is planned to be released sometime in 2008.

6. Our C-212II line array boxes are currently out on the 2008 Hypnotized" tour featuring major hip hop artists. I believe that there are 12 dates left on the tour. It came through Indiana two weeks ago at the Conseco Field House (Indiana Pacers Stadium). We dropped by, and it sounded fantastic. If you get the chance to check out the tour, you can get a great idea of our product.

In conclusion, we thank all of you for your interest in our product line and look forward to your business!

Tvi Audio www.tviaudio.com

[Steve Payne]

Brian,
 I reread your post several times to see if I was missing something.  I don't think I am.  I am pretty sure that you just tested one element of a purported line array system that sounded harsh around 2 to 4k, begins to distort at 105db at 1 meter, is fitted with fly ware that is easily bent with hand tools, aiming software is currently unavailable and rigging instructions are not supplied. From this you surmised that if the buyer exercised a bit of creative thinking and redesigned the flyware and smarted the system to establish their own set of operating parameters they would have themselves a good bang for the buck line array system.  Interesting conclusions.  Thanks for that.

p.s. - I also am left wondering exactly what makes a passive crossover look very "Chinese".

[Jeff Babcock]

As Steve alluded to, I don't see how hearing one box can give any sort of conclusion as to how this will work in a real line.  Particularly important is how well the boxes interact with each other, which we know nothing about.  I do know that breaking up at 105db at 1m sounds VERY wrong.  Certainly the specs suggest you should be capable of getting A LOT more than that.  One thing to note is there is a groundstacking option listed on their website.

Brian, I truly appreciate your efforts to put a review together for this (you were perhaps more positive given the results than I might have been!), but based on what you were given to work with it is impossible to make the conclusion that this will make a good line array without hearing it that way.  I'm not saying it's the case, but for all we know a full array of these boxes could sound no better than a bunch of decent trap boxes laid on their side stacked vertically.

I think the only thing that can be concluded from this review is regarding build quality and rigging hardware quality.  If I were buying a line array I would NEVER base my decision on hearing 1 element instead of an actual line, that's just nuts.  If TVI wants to get serious customers they need to let them hear a real full scale rig.  Then some accurate reviews can happen giving a fair evaluation of what the system is capable of in its intended environment.  If I were TVI and assuming I believed in my product, I would want to get some reviews happening asap.  Even if the reviews are not all positive it will help them to build a better product in the future.