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[John Roberts {JR}]

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 16:31

Andy, Those are some excellent points regarding gates and downward expanders. I hadn't made much of a distinction before now. Thanks. Would you say that downward expanders are click proof? Do you have any other suggestions regarding applications such as what never to use one or the other on or what sources work well with one or the other?

While it's possible to design gates that don't click (I have), they still remain an on/off function as compared to an expander which will have an attack and release time constant.

About a zillion years ago (LOFT) I designed a compressor that IMO did it right.. Instead of the typical above threshold compression it compressed the entire range by whatever compression ratio you dialed in. Since this would raise the noise floor during quiet bits (just like normal comps with make up gain), an integrated downward expander would start reversing the compression to hit unity gain again at an adjustable downward expansion threshold, and continue expanding further down if you desired. To top it off a peak limiter was also included to protect against dropped mics and such. Nice part was all accomplished with one VCA.

Maybe I need to make a plug in...  Hardware is so passe for signal processing.

JR

[Dave Rickard]

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 15:31

Would you say that downward expanders are click proof? Do you have any other suggestions regarding applications such as what never to use one or the other on or what sources work well with one or the other?

Not Andy, but I've had clicking issues with 266's on bass guitars.  I'm pretty sure it was the comp, not the expander.

[Luke Walchuk]

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 03 August 2007 13:10

Make sure none of this compression or expansion is going to the monitors! Singers need their dynamics to stay pure in a 1:1 ratio. If you compress or gate or expand their mic going to their monitor you'll end up making them lose their voice by singing too hard. Bad dog, no bone. -Bink

So if I'm running monitors from FOH, would you suggest that I don't insert the compressors on my vocal channels, but rather run them in-line, as having them inserted affects the monitors as well? This could solve an issue I've been having a fair amount of trouble with.

[Andy Peters]

Luke Walchuk wrote on Sun, 05 August 2007 01:09

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 03 August 2007 13:10 Make sure none of this compression or expansion is going to the monitors! Singers need their dynamics to stay pure in a 1:1 ratio. If you compress or gate or expand their mic going to their monitor you'll end up making them lose their voice by singing too hard. Bad dog, no bone. -Bink So if I'm running monitors from FOH, would you suggest that I don't insert the compressors on my vocal channels, but rather run them in-line, as having them inserted affects the monitors as well? This could solve an issue I've been having a fair amount of trouble with.

Run them "in line" ?

If you mean "Between the mic and the console input," that won't work, as the compressor expects a line level.

If you mean "between the console and the crossover," then you'll compress the whole mix, which is probably not what you want.

To avoid compressing vocals in monitors, you can do two things: insert the compressor on a group, or split the input into two channels and use one for monitors (no insert) and one for FOH (with compressor inserted).  I do the latter.

-a

[Andy Peters]

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 14:31

Would you say that downward expanders are click proof? Do you have any other suggestions regarding applications such as what never to use one or the other on or what sources work well with one or the other?

No, not click proof, but consider that gates have > 80 dB attenuation right up until they open, and if the attack time is "fast" then you get a step function between 0 V output and whatever the signal may be.  That rapid change causes the click.  Less attenuation then less overall level change thus less click.  (You can also slow down the attack time, which makes the ramp between full and no attenuation slower, so the step is less.)

And again, an important detail regarding the expander is that the gain reduction below threshold isn't some constant big value, but rather it changes in the same way that a compressor's gain reduction above threshold changes.  In other words, right around threshold the gain reduction is minimum, and as you get further away from the threshold, the gain reduction increases as given by the ratio.  Since the gain reduction is ramping, as the rms signal level approaches threshold its attenuation is reducing anyway.

Did that make sense?

-a

[Michael 'Bink' Knowles]

Andy Peters wrote on Sun, 05 August 2007 08:38

...To avoid compressing vocals in monitors, you can do two things: insert the compressor on a group, or split the input into two channels and use one for monitors (no insert) and one for FOH (with compressor inserted).  I do the latter.

+1

-Bink

[Matthew Knischewsky]

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 18:05

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 16:31 Andy, Those are some excellent points regarding gates and downward expanders. I hadn't made much of a distinction before now. Thanks. Would you say that downward expanders are click proof? Do you have any other suggestions regarding applications such as what never to use one or the other on or what sources work well with one or the other? While it's possible to design gates that don't click (I have), they still remain an on/off function as compared to an expander which will have an attack and release time constant. About a zillion years ago (LOFT) I designed a compressor that IMO did it right.. Instead of the typical above threshold compression it compressed the entire range by whatever compression ratio you dialed in. Since this would raise the noise floor during quiet bits (just like normal comps with make up gain), an integrated downward expander would start reversing the compression to hit unity gain again at an adjustable downward expansion threshold, and continue expanding further down if you desired. To top it off a peak limiter was also included to protect against dropped mics and such. Nice part was all accomplished with one VCA. Maybe I need to make a plug in...  Hardware is so passe for signal processing. JR

Hey! I've got one of those in storage. time to dust it off and try it out.

[Shane Presley]

The only time I've used a light gate on open mics is to reduce wind noise outside (sans windsock. Someone said earlier if you have a dynamic singer, you will lose the beginings and endings of his/her vocal.  Eq the mons, get it as loud as you can, then tell the singer to sing harder if they still can't hear....
cheers
SP

[Toby Mills]

Quote:

...To avoid compressing vocals in monitors, you can do two things: insert the compressor on a group, or split the input into two channels and use one for monitors (no insert) and one for FOH (with compressor inserted). I do the latter.

I do the latter as well and recommend it after experimenting with both over the years, if you compress the group then you really need to use a multiband compressor as you may have one strong singer that engages the compressor and kills all the others or the whole female vs male thing which can screw things up.

Individual compressors inserted on each FOH vocal channel, then a Y split cable into another channel and use the split channel for your monitor sends.

Things to watch:

- make sure you turn down the monitor aux sends on the FOH channel or you will send a compressed signal to monitors.
- make sure you turn off any routing to LR on the split channels or you will send uncompressed signal to FOH. (I often tape the faders down if someone else will be mixing).
- make sure you clearly label the split channels, I put them on the other side of the master section on a console so you quickly know which is which.

[Steve Oldridge]

Shane Presley wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 15:10

The only time I've used a light gate on open mics is to reduce wind noise outside (sans windsock. Someone said earlier if you have a dynamic singer, you will lose the beginings and endings of his/her vocal.  Eq the mons, get it as loud as you can, then tell the singer to sing harder if they still can't hear.... cheers SP

ME 2 !!   I've only used them outdoors on windy days. NO substitute I guess..  Never used them inside. Ever.

-Steve