ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down

Author Topic: GATES  (Read 4877 times)

John Roberts {JR}

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 0
Re: GATES vs downward expanders
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2007, 06:05:21 pm »

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 16:31


Andy,

Those are some excellent points regarding gates and downward expanders. I hadn't made much of a distinction before now. Thanks.

Would you say that downward expanders are click proof? Do you have any other suggestions regarding applications such as what never to use one or the other on or what sources work well with one or the other?


While it's possible to design gates that don't click (I have), they still remain an on/off function as compared to an expander which will have an attack and release time constant.

About a zillion years ago (LOFT) I designed a compressor that IMO did it right.. Instead of the typical above threshold compression it compressed the entire range by whatever compression ratio you dialed in. Since this would raise the noise floor during quiet bits (just like normal comps with make up gain), an integrated downward expander would start reversing the compression to hit unity gain again at an adjustable downward expansion threshold, and continue expanding further down if you desired. To top it off a peak limiter was also included to protect against dropped mics and such. Nice part was all accomplished with one VCA.

Maybe I need to make a plug in... Cool  Hardware is so passe for signal processing.

JR
Logged
 https://www.resotune.com/


Tune it, or don't play it...
-----

Dave Rickard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2903
Re: GATES vs downward expanders
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2007, 10:28:35 pm »

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 15:31

Would you say that downward expanders are click proof? Do you have any other suggestions regarding applications such as what never to use one or the other on or what sources work well with one or the other?


Not Andy, but I've had clicking issues with 266's on bass guitars.  I'm pretty sure it was the comp, not the expander.
Logged
Dave
Yorkville dealer

"The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear."

"If you don't have good stuff at each end of the signal chain, (mics and speakers) what you use in between is just turd polish."--Dave Dermont

Luke Walchuk

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
Re: GATES
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2007, 04:09:06 am »

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 03 August 2007 13:10


Make sure none of this compression or expansion is going to the monitors! Singers need their dynamics to stay pure in a 1:1 ratio. If you compress or gate or expand their mic going to their monitor you'll end up making them lose their voice by singing too hard. Bad dog, no bone.

-Bink


So if I'm running monitors from FOH, would you suggest that I don't insert the compressors on my vocal channels, but rather run them in-line, as having them inserted affects the monitors as well? This could solve an issue I've been having a fair amount of trouble with.
Logged

Andy Peters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9104
    • http://www.latke.net/
Re: GATES
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2007, 11:38:14 am »

Luke Walchuk wrote on Sun, 05 August 2007 01:09

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 03 August 2007 13:10


Make sure none of this compression or expansion is going to the monitors! Singers need their dynamics to stay pure in a 1:1 ratio. If you compress or gate or expand their mic going to their monitor you'll end up making them lose their voice by singing too hard. Bad dog, no bone.

-Bink


So if I'm running monitors from FOH, would you suggest that I don't insert the compressors on my vocal channels, but rather run them in-line, as having them inserted affects the monitors as well? This could solve an issue I've been having a fair amount of trouble with.


Run them "in line" ?

If you mean "Between the mic and the console input," that won't work, as the compressor expects a line level.

If you mean "between the console and the crossover," then you'll compress the whole mix, which is probably not what you want.

To avoid compressing vocals in monitors, you can do two things: insert the compressor on a group, or split the input into two channels and use one for monitors (no insert) and one for FOH (with compressor inserted).  I do the latter.

-a
Logged
"This isn't some upside down inverted Socratic method where you throw out your best guess answers and I correct your work." -- JR


"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."

Andy Peters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9104
    • http://www.latke.net/
Re: GATES vs downward expanders
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2007, 11:49:10 am »

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 14:31

Would you say that downward expanders are click proof? Do you have any other suggestions regarding applications such as what never to use one or the other on or what sources work well with one or the other?


No, not click proof, but consider that gates have > 80 dB attenuation right up until they open, and if the attack time is "fast" then you get a step function between 0 V output and whatever the signal may be.  That rapid change causes the click.  Less attenuation then less overall level change thus less click.  (You can also slow down the attack time, which makes the ramp between full and no attenuation slower, so the step is less.)

And again, an important detail regarding the expander is that the gain reduction below threshold isn't some constant big value, but rather it changes in the same way that a compressor's gain reduction above threshold changes.  In other words, right around threshold the gain reduction is minimum, and as you get further away from the threshold, the gain reduction increases as given by the ratio.  Since the gain reduction is ramping, as the rms signal level approaches threshold its attenuation is reducing anyway.

Did that make sense?

-a
Logged
"This isn't some upside down inverted Socratic method where you throw out your best guess answers and I correct your work." -- JR


"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."

Michael 'Bink' Knowles

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4279
    • http://www.binkster.net/index.shtml
Re: GATES
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2007, 03:28:13 pm »

Andy Peters wrote on Sun, 05 August 2007 08:38

...To avoid compressing vocals in monitors, you can do two things: insert the compressor on a group, or split the input into two channels and use one for monitors (no insert) and one for FOH (with compressor inserted).  I do the latter.


+1

-Bink
Logged
Michael 'Bink' Knowles
www.binkster.net

Matthew Knischewsky

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 326
Re: GATES vs downward expanders
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2007, 03:43:53 pm »

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 18:05

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 16:31


Andy,

Those are some excellent points regarding gates and downward expanders. I hadn't made much of a distinction before now. Thanks.

Would you say that downward expanders are click proof? Do you have any other suggestions regarding applications such as what never to use one or the other on or what sources work well with one or the other?


While it's possible to design gates that don't click (I have), they still remain an on/off function as compared to an expander which will have an attack and release time constant.

About a zillion years ago (LOFT) I designed a compressor that IMO did it right.. Instead of the typical above threshold compression it compressed the entire range by whatever compression ratio you dialed in. Since this would raise the noise floor during quiet bits (just like normal comps with make up gain), an integrated downward expander would start reversing the compression to hit unity gain again at an adjustable downward expansion threshold, and continue expanding further down if you desired. To top it off a peak limiter was also included to protect against dropped mics and such. Nice part was all accomplished with one VCA.

Maybe I need to make a plug in... Cool  Hardware is so passe for signal processing.

JR


Hey! I've got one of those in storage. time to dust it off and try it out.
Logged

Shane Presley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 699
    • http://www.bssproductions.com
Re: GATES
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2007, 04:10:35 pm »

The only time I've used a light gate on open mics is to reduce wind noise outside (sans windsock. Someone said earlier if you have a dynamic singer, you will lose the beginings and endings of his/her vocal.  Eq the mons, get it as loud as you can, then tell the singer to sing harder if they still can't hear....
cheers
SP

Toby Mills

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 801
    • http://www.np.co.nz
Re: GATES
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2007, 07:42:22 pm »

Quote:

...To avoid compressing vocals in monitors, you can do two things: insert the compressor on a group, or split the input into two channels and use one for monitors (no insert) and one for FOH (with compressor inserted). I do the latter.


I do the latter as well and recommend it after experimenting with both over the years, if you compress the group then you really need to use a multiband compressor as you may have one strong singer that engages the compressor and kills all the others or the whole female vs male thing which can screw things up.

Individual compressors inserted on each FOH vocal channel, then a Y split cable into another channel and use the split channel for your monitor sends.

Things to watch:

- make sure you turn down the monitor aux sends on the FOH channel or you will send a compressed signal to monitors.
- make sure you turn off any routing to LR on the split channels or you will send uncompressed signal to FOH. (I often tape the faders down if someone else will be mixing).
- make sure you clearly label the split channels, I put them on the other side of the master section on a console so you quickly know which is which.
Logged
noise productions ltd
www.np.co.nz
"can you please turn down the shit knob"

Steve Oldridge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1169
Re: GATES
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2007, 08:07:55 pm »

Shane Presley wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 15:10

The only time I've used a light gate on open mics is to reduce wind noise outside (sans windsock. Someone said earlier if you have a dynamic singer, you will lose the beginings and endings of his/her vocal.  Eq the mons, get it as loud as you can, then tell the singer to sing harder if they still can't hear....
cheers
SP


ME 2 !!   I've only used them outdoors on windy days. NO substitute I guess..  Never used them inside. Ever.

-Steve
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.054 seconds with 22 queries.