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[Michael 'Bink' Knowles]

I'm trying to spec a stupid-proof sound system for a department store demo kitchen where they sometimes have TV-themed cooking challenges and an audience of 150 crowded into the pots and pans section of the store. They have three lavs for cooks, a handheld for the MC who is sometimes out in the audience and a single minijack for iPod/laptop theme music and sound effects playback. A retail clerk/cook will run the system. I think they need a very simple fader panel that leads to all sorts of groovy hidden DSP things like automixing, zone routing and notch filtering that they don't have to think about. No buttons for them to press to accidentally unassign stuff or bring down screeching feedback.  o_O



I found the Allen & Heath iDR-8 and its remote fader panel the PL-6. Sexy little setup! I think it would be a great fit for these endearing chuckleheads so I based my spec on that combo. My client is pushing very hard to have another option on the proposal so they can compare two and choose one (probably based on price) which brings me here asking is there any other extremely simple remote fader panel that links to DSP brains? Biamp? Ivie? Lectrosonics? Rane? BSS? Yamaha? Symetrix? Mediamatrix?

All I need is five faders; four mics and one playback. They don't need output zone control.

-Bink

[Phil LaDue]

It appears that A&H has themselves a niche product.
I found plenty of products with rotary encoders, but none with more than 2 faders.

[Rob Timmerman]

Ashly has a similar product.

The 24.24m can be connected to the R?-8c, an 8-fader panel.

[Phil LaDue]

Rob Timmerman wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 22:09

Ashly has a similar product. The 24.24m can be connected to the R?-8c, an 8-fader panel.

Both of those units seem to be just remote level controllers.

http://www.ashly.com/product/d_acc2.htm

[Michael 'Bink' Knowles]

Phil LaDue wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 19:28

Rob Timmerman wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 22:09 Ashly has a similar product. The 24.24m can be connected to the R?-8c, an 8-fader panel. Both of those units seem to be just remote level controllers. http://www.ashly.com/product/d_acc2.htm

Oh, yeah! Thanks for the tip, guys. The Ashly is very interesting even though it doesn't appear to have automixing. Good option, though.  

-Bink

[Jason Lavoie]

the Symetrix boxes have premade modules to control or be controlled by a CM labs motormix.
that has a few more knobs, but maybe they can be locked out in software.

Jason

[Karl P(eterson)]

The A&H is the right answer here.

Your other options (none as appropriate for application) are these:

1. DSP of choice with either stardraw or crestron control
3. BSS Soundweb London BLU-16 with BLU-10 controller
4. EAW DX8 - The mounting on this one is nasty, but it should do what you want.
5. Symetrix - 8X8 Express with a ARC-2 Controller

[Tom Young]

Bink-

Check out the TOA D-901 DSP and its companion D-911 remote control. Although the remote panel is not nearly as compact, it does appear to be as minimal-function and idiot proof.

http://toaelectronics.com/d-901.asp

Among other nifty features of the DSP system is the ability to buy what you need as far as in/out quantities.

Let me know if this works out.

[Phil LaDue]

Tom Young wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 12:36

Bink- Check out the TOA D-901 DSP and its companion D-911 remote control. Although the remote panel is not nearly as compact, it does appear to be as minimal-function and idiot proof. http://toaelectronics.com/d-901.asp Among other nifty features of the DSP system is the ability to buy what you need as far as in/out quantities. Let me know if this works out.

Nice find Tom,

[Michael 'Bink' Knowles]

Phil LaDue wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 09:38

Tom Young wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 12:36 Bink- Check out the TOA D-901 DSP and its companion D-911 remote control. Although the remote panel is not nearly as compact, it does appear to be as minimal-function and idiot proof. http://toaelectronics.com/d-901.asp Among other nifty features of the DSP system is the ability to buy what you need as far as in/out quantities. Let me know if this works out. Nice find Tom,

Wow, that TOA product was a complete surprise to me. Thanks for the link, Tom. Now I have something equivalent to offer my client.  

-Bink (LAB rocks, don'tcha know)

[Tom Young]

No one is more suprised/pleased as I am by this find

I find it interesting (in a complexing manner) that TOA would develope a rack mount remote control and not also offer a more compact, gang-box sized version. Like everyone else does.

I can see using this device for some of my projects but not without being able to recess it into a stud wall and with a security cover. I cannot just hang a rack on the wall due to both visual concerns and cost (duh).

Also (if I understand correctly) you have to run 8 CAT5 cables (plus DC power wires ?) plus you also have to buy the remote control card for this thing to be fully funtional. Huh ?

Having output level controls on this remote sort of bothers me, as well. If the DSP is used for ldspkr system "management" (and it always will be on my projects), then I would definitley disable the outputs (or at least the appropriate ones) on the remote. Not to mention the front panel controls on the mainframe unit.

One last point: when you compare prices (especially dealer prices) with other multifunction DSP, the TOA is very competitive.

I'll have to check one out.

[Michael 'Bink' Knowles]

Tom Young wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 06:15

No one is more suprised/pleased as I am by this find I find it interesting (in a complexing manner) that TOA would develope a rack mount remote control and not also offer a more compact, gang-box sized version. Like everyone else does. I can see using this device for some of my projects but not without being able to recess it into a stud wall and with a security cover. I cannot just hang a rack on the wall due to both visual concerns and cost (duh). Also (if I understand correctly) you have to run 8 CAT5 cables (plus DC power wires ?) plus you also have to buy the remote control card for this thing to be fully funtional. Huh ? Having output level controls on this remote sort of bothers me, as well. If the DSP is used for ldspkr system "management" (and it always will be on my projects), then I would definitley disable the outputs (or at least the appropriate ones) on the remote. Not to mention the front panel controls on the mainframe unit. One last point: when you compare prices (especially dealer prices) with other multifunction DSP, the TOA is very competitive. I'll have to check one out.

I downloaded the TOA software to play with it and it's simplistic but quite workable for this project. It has a fixed layout where you turn processing on if you need it but you can't move any of the processing elements around or insert another processor anywhere. You can't have one thing duck another (I wanted voices to carry over music playback) and you can't have two feedback hunter/killers in place as there is only one 'MIC' subgroup routing through one 'FBS' element.

The Allen & Heath iDR-8 offering has the advantage of a much more flexible DSP drag and drop architecture and its remote fader panel is less cluttered.

My client has already expressed his preference for the less expensive solution (as expected.)

-Bink

[Tom Young]

"It has a fixed layout where you turn processing on if you need it but you can't move any of the processing elements around or insert another processor anywhere. You can't have one thing duck another (I wanted voices to carry over music playback) and you can't have two feedback hunter/killers in place as there is only one 'MIC' subgroup routing through one 'FBS' element."

Jeepers. Remember JM's 'history of trying to steer TOA from the wrong direction' that he gave us outside AES in SF last fall ? This supports his "tale of woe" quiet well.

I just looked further into this device and they only provide 2 bands of PEQ (plus a HPF) on each input. Outputs have up to 6 bands of PEQ which may be enough..... but who knows until you get there ? What a knuckleheaded thing to do !

But (then again): how many other multifunction DSP systems have a built in "echo effect" ?



What in blazes does the Hysteresis control do on the Gate function ? Update: I googled and discovered the application of "hysteresis" in noise gates. My bad.

"The Allen & Heath iDR-8 offering has the advantage of a much more flexible DSP drag and drop architecture and its remote fader panel is less cluttered."

not to mention smaller and cheaper (remote).

"My client has already expressed his preference for the less expensive solution (as expected.)"

So you at least accomplished that. Good.

[Jason Lavoie]

Quote:

What in blazes does the Hysteresis control do on the Gate function ?

just guessing here, based on the definition of hysteresis.
it sounds like the gate is capable of opening and closing at different setpoints. so instead of just having a threshold where the gate opens and closes you could have it only open when it gets a signal of say -20dB but then stay open unless the signal dips all the way down to -30dB preventing it from chopping off quiet sylables. sounds like an interesting idea actually.

Jason

[Josh Millward]

From the sounds of what you want to do, it seems as though a Peavey Digitool would be quite adequate with two of the D1V wall controllers. One controller for the microphones and one for the Ipod interface (4 separate levels can be controlled by one knob). I only mention this because it seems that every more expensive method available was mentioned but this one was left out.

Full disclosure: I do currently work for the MediaMatrix (MM) division of Peavey, http://mm.peavey.com. However, the Digitool is sold through the Architectural Acoustics (AA) division, http://aa.peavey.com, which is just down the hall.

Hysteresis> we have these kinds of adjustments available in the Mware and Nware software for our Frame and NION products. It can be quite handy when you need it. Most of the time you don't need it though.

[Tom Young]

Close, Jason.

In order to keep the gate from "chattering" (as the signal goes below and above the threshold, back & forth), the threshold for closing the gate is set lower than the threshold for opening the gate. This apparently works better than the Hold control.

Having never seen this on any analog gate (used for music), I imagine that this is an innovation developed for automixing and perhaps has been implemented only since DSP came along ?

I like the concept.

[Tom Young]

Your suggested remote control panels sound much like those available from pretty much everyone for their DSP. You first select a source (with one knob) and then adjust it (with another).

Bink's proposed device is unique in that there are multiple physical faders and (apparently) little confusion about what the users are adjusting.

In many facilities that I design for the more complicated type of remote control is desirable, as it keeps unauthorized folks from inadverently sabotaging things.

[Michael 'Bink' Knowles]

Tom Young wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 13:20

...Bink's proposed device is unique in that there are multiple physical faders and (apparently) little confusion about what the users are adjusting...

Yup, as little confusion as possbible. One of the many solutions I was considering was a Rane RPM 88 with five single VR2 or SR2 rotary knobs mounted in five utility boxes on the wall. Another was a Peavey NION with five of the simplest volume knobs offered. Any kind of dual purpose knob would be wasted on these folks and in fact, could possibly lead to trouble if I weren't able to program the other functions on the knob to do the same thing as the first function. I wanted this customer to have a straight one-to-one relationship between sound sources and visible volume knobs.

-Bink

[Josh Millward]

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 17:50

Yup, as little confusion as possbible.  ...(snip)...   Any kind of dual purpose knob would be wasted on these folks and in fact, could possibly lead to trouble if I weren't able to program the other functions on the knob to do the same thing as the first function. I wanted this customer to have a straight one-to-one relationship between sound sources and visible volume knobs. -Bink

If you don't mind utilizing the GPIO functions on the NION, using a single piece of CAT-5 cable one could easily connect up to 7 controls. Or 15 controls with two lengths of Cat-5. The Digitool could do up to 4. Then simply use a set of faders or knobs mounted in whatever sort of device you like.

Tom Young wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 13:20

...Your suggested remote control panels sound much like those available from pretty much everyone for their DSP. You first select a source (with one knob) and then adjust it (with another)....

Close, but slightly different. One knob only. Push it to advance from one to two, again for two to three, again for three to four, and again for four to one. There is an LED indicator to tell you which setting you are adjusting at a given time. I think they are easier to tell what you are adjusting than some of the other wall controls out there.

[Robert Sims]

Another product to consider.

Biamp VS8 & V8 can be used with any their processors. Easy to install and program.

http://www.biamp.com/accessories.php?act=log&dlid=14& ;type=acc&tid=4

Great automixer and mix minus modules.

Robert
Have a great 4th.

[Eric Snodgrass]

This might be a little too complex for your needs but the Yamaha DME units are worth checking out.  

[Michael 'Bink' Knowles]

Eric Snodgrass wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 21:14

This might be a little too complex for your needs but the Yamaha DME units are worth checking out.

I like 'too complex' because it means I can do sophisticated processing tricks in a seemingly simple package. The simple part goes in front of the client! The Yamaha DME with a couple of its fader remotes is a worthy contender.

-Bink