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Author Topic: A question of lamps  (Read 1830 times)

Wes Kennison

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A question of lamps
« on: June 21, 2007, 01:09:15 pm »

Is there an industry standard per se? I seem to see a lot of Phillips bulbs in fixtures. If I'm buying a 575 W mover what kind of lamp should it have? Gas discharge, wtf is that? I'm able to see the obvious superiority of the light emanating from some fixtures versus others, is that the lamp or optics affecting this qualitative aspect of the light itself?

Thanks from noob central.
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Phil LaDue

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2007, 01:54:02 pm »

Wes Kennison wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 13:09

Is there an industry standard per se?

No, other than not buying really cheap no name imports. You should buy the best quality lamps you can afford.

Wes Kennison

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2007, 05:19:39 pm »

I believe I may have confused my terminology, I was trying to refer to the actual bulb itself. Is Phillips the most widely used bulb, are there other names that are reliable?
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Phil LaDue

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2007, 11:19:14 pm »

Wes Kennison wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 17:19

I believe I may have confused my terminology, I was trying to refer to the actual bulb itself. Is Phillips the most widely used bulb, are there other names that are reliable?

No, you had it right.
The light(unit itself) is referred to as a fixture by those of us in the "know" Laughing
The bulb is known as a lamp.

Brian Ship

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 11:29:23 pm »

Phillips is a standard, kind of like GE for PAR 64 lamps.   For any one lamp Phillips makes, GE, Osram and Ushio also normally make a similar one.   There are at times lamps Phillips makes others don't and at times lamps others make Phillips does not but for the most part they all make many lamps in common and all are within a range of decent quality.

Buying the best name brand you can afford is good advice.   Amglo and Wolfram also are domestic and known for decent quality to some extent to further the list but they are not considered name brand.  Eiko is getting into the market also, possible they are decent lamps, have not play tested them.   See some Devine' lamps about at times, as with Thorn versions.

Word of advice, be very specific about what lamp you are looking at, even for a Phillips 575w arc lamp as you describe it there are eight versions between MSR, MSI, MSD, & MSP, these can be single or double ended, the /2 version, short arc and hot restrike.   You can use the Phillips lamp code to specify what lamp you are looking into but must know the exact description code of that lamp to get what you want.
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Wes Kennison

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2007, 12:12:25 am »

Thanks, that's very good advice indeed. ^^^
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Brian Ship

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2007, 01:48:38 am »

On the advice, listen to your dealer for the lamps.  This given you are able to detect if they know their lamps or if they are just attempting to sell you some stuff.  Most likely they have either play tested what they might recommend or not recommend as an alternative and will further stand by what they sell should it not work out so well for you.  In a specified lamp for the fixture, this is the lamp the fixture was designed to use or was later tested in what’s listed the fixture by spec can use.   That’s important also in detail by way of should something other than the specified lamp be in the fixture, any damage the lamp does say to a reflector that could cost as much to replace if not more than the lamp done, might not be covered under warranty.  

In other words, ask questions of those you buy the lamps from and fixture from, express your concerns say on budget and what is going to work.   All it takes is one lamp taking out a reflector should it blow up and it becomes very costly to get it running again.   On the other hand in expecting you are most likely talking about say a MSR 575/2 with it’s variants the MSR 575 and MSD 575 (all with their own advantages and disadvantages but would work), that is a lamp that has been on the market a long time now.   Most manufacturers, Made in China or Domestic or Name Brand will have in their own way mastered that lamp to the extent they can.   Often the major difference between brands is in output and color temperature when you get into matching up one brand of lamp to another and even in the initial first few hours where the lamp is stabilizing itself.  In you getting what you pay for, at times a lamp might take hours to get to it’s design spec and fluctuate wildly while getting there.   Once at it’s operating output and color temperature, in matching up to and playing nice with lamps of other brands, at times the off brand or even lot number of them won’t match up.   While Phillips prices are often a bit more on lamps, for certain lamps from them at least it’s worth it as opposed to other less reliable lamps both for output and lamp life.   This clearly not to say that Phillips lamps are perfect, wouldn’t touch one for a Mac 2K.  On the other hand, it’s the best 700SA lamp on the market.  For a MSR 575/2, that’s a fairly wide open market in what’s cost effective.  Certainly won’t go wrong with a Phillips lamp - it is a very safe bet.   Other brands one might find are just as good in this lamp however given it’s age and time to refine their versions.

This concept of alternate brands to the extent that if your inventory is the same lamp, even if by far different in output and color temperature from the bench mark Phillips lamp, if all the fixtures you see are say dim in comparison, remove what you compare them to and they are bright as day.

Reliability of the lamp than is the factor to weigh against price.  Name brand lamps are normally reliable, other brands can also be but are not always - see above on dealer recommendations and experience.   One brand does not work so well for you? Try another perhaps over time.  Take copious notes on each lamp and the lamp hours.  Track all info available, it can mean free lamp replacements at times if lot number problems or individual lamps that don’t live up to a reasonable at least 2/3 expected lamp life.  On the other hand, no matter the brand there is always a 10% at least of all which fail.  That’s life in the world of a high output lamp.

Wouldn’t say I would go for something that you know is way too cheap for your investment, but might go for something that seems with recommendation sufficient for your needs.

Me, I don’t use this lamp, I use another premium brand that after testing is just as reliable and good.   Still stock the Phillips in this type but only for resale or when I run out.  Good lamps, other good lamps available.

And no, I will not say one brand over another because as said, budget plays a factor in choosing beyond what one or another person decides is best for them.
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Craig Leerman

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2007, 04:11:03 am »

Quote:

 I'm able to see the obvious superiority of the light emanating from some fixtures versus others, is that the lamp or optics affecting this qualitative aspect of the light itself?


Its both the lamp, and optics that can affect the quality, as well as the light output.

Basically speaking, all lamps are not the same, even if they have the same wattage. Some lamps have a higher color temperature than others, and they put out a bit more "whiter color" light. Lower color temp bulb will put out a more yellow/orange color. The down side to a higher color temp lamp is that they usually have very short life spans (as opposed to regular bulbs)

Other factors in lamp differences include voltage (some are rated for 115 and some up to 130), filament layout, and even envelope design (the outer bulb part).

But, while there are minor differences in bulbs, the biggest differences between fixtures is optics and focus.

Newer conventional fixtures like the ETC Source Four and Altman Shakespeare Ellipsoidal fixtures have better optics, and better reflectors than older designs. Couple these new fixtures with a newer design compact filament style bulb (like the HPL used in the S4s) and you get way more light output than older designs.

The other big difference between fixtures is focus. While you can just shove a lamp in a fixture and use it, if you take the time to adjust the lamp inside the housing to its optimal position (most Lekos and other higher end fixtures have lamp adjustments), you will get a better quality of light out of that fixture, especially when you compare it to the same fixture/lamp combo that has not been adjusted.

Also, the better intelligent fixtures usually have better optics than the lower quality units, and they put out more light with the same or similar bulb.

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Wes Kennison

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2007, 09:18:26 am »

The lamp is an HMI 575(1) and I believe it's rated at 5600K. The manufacturers in question are a couple of different Chinese companies, some have the Phillips lamp mentioned in the spec readout, some don't. I wanted to have a better idea of what to request from them before I brought this up in our negotiations.

Very helpful as usual, thank you both!



Wes
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Brian Ship

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Re: A question of lamps
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2007, 03:43:10 am »

Phillips does not use anything with HMI 575(1), while unknown what (1) means, HMI is normally a Osram brand description code.

Your description brings it down to one of two Osram lamps - either a single ended or double ended version and that's a big difference.  The SE verses the GS.  Phillips makes or at least used to make a few versions of both as does Osram and others.  Most likely this is the single ended version based upon what you describe.  Still in putting on a sales person type hat in trying to figure out what it is you are looking for, what's the fixture?  At this point tell the fixture and I'll tell you the exact lamp is so as to form a basis of understanding.  Won't try to sell you your lamps, instead just curious.
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