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Author Topic: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos  (Read 4577 times)

Rain Jaudon

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3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« on: June 10, 2007, 10:37:12 am »

Have a church install project I'm working on.

Currently they are setup as this:

BNC5 cable from FOH to Projector 1.
VGA cable linking Projector 1 to Projector 2.
VGA cable from FOH to Projector 3.

Client wants to have the  ability to broadcast each source (dvd, easyworship, slideshow (maybe more))playing on a different projector.
ie.  dvd on the first projector, easy worship on the second, and a slide show on the third.

Other times he wants to have the same source on all three projectors at the same time.

What magic box is out there that allows VGA in, DVI in, Svideo in, RCA/Component in, etc - then lets you output to just as many different options?

They say the new computer will have three different monitors, in order to dedicate one per projector if needed. (etc etc etc )
honestly, they don't really know WHAT they need or want at this stage of the game)

I'm just getting some figures and facts together.

p.s. I know that I will need to run a new cable from FOH to the 2nd projector (that is currently just linked with a short VGA cable to projector 1).

p.s.s. Anyone have good experience with any of the wireless video options?  FOH to projector is probably 100' or so.

Thanks gang
Rain
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Multitude Audio
Subcontracting under Magnolia Music Center
Audio Visual Installation and Service
Gulfport, Ocean Springs and Pascagula, MS

Karl P(eterson)

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2007, 12:30:24 pm »

This is simple to do, but simply not cheap.

You are looking at products from three companies (listed in order of cost, of course the more you spend the better quality scaling/more features you get).

1. Quantity 3 Extron SGS 408 with Quantity 3 RCP 1000,  Quantity 1 ECP 1000 and 1x3 Splitters for every needed
2. Quantity 3 Analog Way Centrix, Quantity 1 Triplex Controller, Quantity 1 Universal Booster
3. Quantity 3 Barco Screen Pro, Quantity 1 Barco Screen Pro Controller, Quantity 1 Barco MatrixPro RGBHV

With any of these systems you will need to add any nescicary iso-amps, preview monitors, etc.

I personally like the Analog way system pretty well, although the Barco gear has better features for a relativly small price premium.

Just remember that in order to do this much video, you need to be very well planned or it becomes a distraction..... very quickly.

Any other questions, don't hesitate to ask!

Karl P
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Brad Weber

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2007, 03:37:44 pm »

Karl offers one option, which would be typical of larger production environments.  However, I would really suggest you first talk to your client about what they are really trying to accomplish.  Are they going to be doing a lot of switching and transitions?  Do they want to be able to preview all three screens all the time?  Will the number of times they have three different sources being displayed justify the cost and additional operation required?

The computer having three monitors probably doesn't mean anything unless what they are really saying is that the computer has three independent video outputs.

It should be noted that FSR offers products identical to the Barco products that Karl identified as they were developed in partnership between FSR and Folsom Research before Folsom became part of Barco.

If you don't require dedicated preview for each screen or a production type controller, another alternative is to use three simpler seamless switchers from any of the same companies feeding a 4x4 or larger matrix VGA or RGBHV switcher.

I agree with Karl that this can get distracting and confusing.  One thing often overlooked is what happens with the related audio.  The approach Karl suggested addresses the video, but it does not address the audio, that needs to be switched or mixed separately.  Then you have to decide if the audio in the room follows what is on one screen or is elected between the three images or is form all three and mixed.
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2007, 04:11:49 pm »

A good catch about the audio, it may be an issue here but I was ASSUMEing that every transport and server would simply pipe its audio into stereo land on the console(s) and the noize boys get the cues from production about which source to take. Of course their environment may not be that complex and hence they would need an audio follow video solution.

That being the case though, unless they have production control capable of decisively knowing what is being used where and how, this is most likely a very bad idea in the making.

I am fully aware (and should have stated) about the Barco / FSR deal, good catch.

I meant to comment about the computer deal as well. Unless this is a mac pro running pro video player with the matrox breakout adapter, there isn't an off the shelf computer capable of spanning three outputs in any kind of reasonable fashion. Even with that setup the most you can hope to do is span a single video without any overlaying. If you want true multi outputs, you will need to have multiple networked computers/servers to do this and the associated switching gear.

What I am basically saying is the capability is a cool one, and one that can be used to great effect, but there needs to be a high level of technical excellence in order to even be considered for implementation.

For what its worth,

Karl P
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Rain Jaudon

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2007, 01:46:05 am »

Thanks for the VERY detailed systems as well as giving me the right questions to ask the client. (and the right comments to make about such a system)

All I can guess is that the musical minister saw such a set up in a super church and wanted his own version in their new sanctuary.

Will keep you posted when I hear back from them
REALLY APPRECIATE YOU GUYS
Rain
Biloxi, MS
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http://www.CAguitars.com

Multitude Audio
Subcontracting under Magnolia Music Center
Audio Visual Installation and Service
Gulfport, Ocean Springs and Pascagula, MS

Rain Jaudon

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2007, 10:13:13 am »

Well as things would have it - they also want to multi track record (whole other forum, i know)

Just keeps adding on to the bid, thats all!  HAHA!

In the mean time, he tosses me this link  -
http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/gxm/products/th2go/

I explain to him that this does not do what he wants.. and again ask him to get very detailed on the "why, what, when, and how often you wanna do this" for his three projectors.

FWIW - the front pair of projectors are Sanyo PLC-XP57L models.
The rear one is a smaller Optoma.

Thanks guys -
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Multitude Audio
Subcontracting under Magnolia Music Center
Audio Visual Installation and Service
Gulfport, Ocean Springs and Pascagula, MS

Karl P(eterson)

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2007, 10:21:20 am »

That matrox product is actually quite an important piece when combined with the right program*, it would allow you to take a video and split it up to play across all screens. Alas it is but one rather minor part of the system and would actually be considered more of an add-on than anything else.

*Programs/servers to run this type of video is another conversation for another time Smile

Karl "loving inline spellcheck in safari" P
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Rain Jaudon

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2007, 10:04:22 pm »

Are you using the BETA version of Safari for PC or are you a fellow Mac user?

Hey
I really appreciate the assistance here.  Client is still not being very clear on what they want.  I almost want to carry them a price quote in based on those first three gear lists yall posted.
The sticker shock alone would cause them to stop and get serious.

Alas, I guess I need to put a budget friendly gear and cable list together.  I can't get a straight answer and feel none of their AV crew has any experience in this field. SO simpler to operate the better.

Anyone have some spare time to help me compile this?
Thanks again
Rain
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http://www.CAguitars.com

Multitude Audio
Subcontracting under Magnolia Music Center
Audio Visual Installation and Service
Gulfport, Ocean Springs and Pascagula, MS

Karl P(eterson)

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2007, 11:54:29 pm »

Rain Jaudon wrote on Tue, 12 June 2007 22:04

Are you using the BETA version of Safari for PC or are you a fellow Mac user?



Beta on Mac. I actually have 4 intel macs at the moment and am looking at another...... And a 30"..... but that obsession is neither here nor there. Cool

Rain Jaudon wrote on Tue, 12 June 2007 22:04


Hey
I really appreciate the assistance here.  Client is still not being very clear on what they want.  I almost want to carry them a price quote in based on those first three gear lists yall posted.
The sticker shock alone would cause them to stop and get serious.



Well we are more than happy to lend a hand.

You have are running into an issue that I view to be a major concern these days. There are some, probably more than some actually, churches who are seeing things that a large church is doing and want to "do that" without first taking into account the cost of doing it (money, AND time) or, more importantly, their identity as a church.

The risk you run by sending them into sticker shock is that they will just dismiss you, find someone's cousin who is a "Pro VJ" and end up with a bunch of long svideo cables, a few edirol V4's or old panasonic SD mixers and a hodgepodge of Scan converters and dubious playback software. Not that this equipment doesn't have its place, it does, but this isn't it.

So while they may still end up snubbing you, you must walk a fine line on trying to lovingly educate while at the same time breaking them to the realities of professional video.

Rain Jaudon wrote on Tue, 12 June 2007 22:04


Alas, I guess I need to put a budget friendly gear and cable list together.  I can't get a straight answer and feel none of their AV crew has any experience in this field. SO simpler to operate the better.

Anyone have some spare time to help me compile this?
Thanks again
Rain




I will say that you, as a contractor probably shouldn't be bidding on this work unless you have a clear understanding about what is required. Even beyond that such a list would represent a significant amount of the system design, and thus wouldn't be the sort of thing that one could expect to get on this forum "line-by-line".

That said, we tend to be nice folk around here so I will at least give you a list of what you need to consider (: .

  1. Transports
  2. Cabling For Transports
  3. Input Splitters / Matrixes
  4. Switchers / Scaling
  5. Preview Monitors
  6. Output Iso-Amps
  7. Cabling To Projectors
  8. Projectors


There is obviously much more to a "System" than that, but it will help you make sure you get you cover your bases.

As for ease of use, check out the analog way gear, it is probably the most "volunteer friendly" that I have used thus far.

Also, as one last warning, please make sure you are capable of doing this before you progress any farther, otherwise you are hurting the church AND yourself.

Karl "resizable text boxes.... now were talking!" P
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Brad Weber

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 09:24:03 am »

Of course, beyond the equipment is properly installing it, configuring it, testing it and training on it.  A system like this isn't just 'plug and play', there is some setup and configuration involved, especially to get the best image possible.

Video systems are much like audio systems in that system gain structure and tuning can greatly affect the end product.  I am often amazed at the difference proper setup and adjustments can make in the resulting image quality and at how few people providing projection systems to churches seem to do this or even have the tools (signal and test pattern generators, wide bandwidth oscilloscope, etc.) and skills to do it well.  You may have this ability, if not you may want to consider teaming with someone who does.  A couple hours of tweaking can make all the difference in the world in the end result.
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Rain Jaudon

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2007, 10:25:00 am »

Karl and Brad -
You guys have taken the words and thoughts right out of my head.

I started the install business after Hurricane Katrina wiped out my  Real Estate brokerage and 90% of my live gigs.  Nearly everything we did the first year was audio related, but in the past several months we've dipped into simple projector installs.

Optoma and Hitachi 1500-2500 lumens projectors and VGA cable runs of well under 130 feet.  Most of these small churches simply want to connect their PC laptop or tower to the projector using EasyWorship or MediaShout in order to display the Scripture or lyrics.

A few have wanted the ability to control the projectors from both the Pulpit and FOH.  One wanted to switch that control wirelessly durring the service.

So its been a very basic and simple existance up until now.
(yes, seems members of this church have extensively visited some Super Churches and now they want the same toys)

Their AV staff simply does not have the education or experience to run the system they are asking for.  
I have one side of the crew asking for 24-36 channel multi tracking ability and the others asking for this multi source, three output video system.
(personally I think their room is not set up for this - no one person in the sanctuary will be able to see all three screens at once)

Thanks for the moral and mental support you two - You've put into words what I've felt about this last minute addition to their system.

And if I forsee more video system installs like this one I will indeed be teaming up with a video specialist.
Thanks again
Rain



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Endorsing Artist for CA Guitars - Lafayette, LA
http://www.CAguitars.com

Multitude Audio
Subcontracting under Magnolia Music Center
Audio Visual Installation and Service
Gulfport, Ocean Springs and Pascagula, MS

Karl P(eterson)

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2007, 12:07:37 pm »

Now do remember before you blow them off to find out what the vision of the church is. Actually, you should always do that first. If the vision and heart of the leadership is to become heavily media oriented, the funds and willingness to learn will be there.

I would heavily recommend you partner with (or acquire) the personnel that are very video savy. Taking a look at the current "landscape" as it were, I would bet that we will be seeing _Much_ more high end video being deployed in churches in the coming months and year. There is good money in it for those that are capable of it.

Of course your area and local market will be a big impact here.

Karl P
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Rain Jaudon

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2007, 07:24:40 pm »

Good Points Karl!
Atlanta we aren't, but the Mississippi Gulf Coast is rebuilding (since Katrina wiped most of our churches out)

Nearly every House of Worship is at least upgrading due to the influx of donations and funds.  Many are completely rebuildling and a good number of those are increasing their sq. footage in big ways.

So yes, I can see the need for the higher end video systems too.
(I guess the ones who broadcast their services have really been the only ones to use this level of equipment up until now)

Rain
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http://www.CAguitars.com

Multitude Audio
Subcontracting under Magnolia Music Center
Audio Visual Installation and Service
Gulfport, Ocean Springs and Pascagula, MS

Karl P(eterson)

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Re: 3 projectors, 1 room, 3 sources - unlimited combos
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2007, 12:05:39 am »

These systems are actually completely different than broadcast video. Broadcast video is a different discipline altogether with it's own rules and pitfalls.

What we are talking about here is production video.

When you have both at the same time is when we _really_ start talking dollars.

Karl P
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