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Author Topic: TOA 9000 Series  (Read 8201 times)

Aaron McQueen

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TOA 9000 Series
« on: May 30, 2007, 11:09:46 AM »

I'm helping out with a lecture hall installation.  I was wondering if anyone has used the TOA 9000 Series Digital Matrix Mixer/Amplifiers.  It looks like the specs will meet the needs, just looking for any real world experience.  Any similar alternative products to look at?

Also ceiling speakers have been suggested for the rear of the lecture hall.  Can these work if properly deployed and delayed?  Any suggestions in in-ceiling manufactures/models?

Any other suggestions for sound systems for lecture halls?
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Tom Young

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2007, 07:11:04 AM »

Aaron-

I tried the 9000 series device perhaps 2 years ago and it was good. I was just tryng it out at home so I do not have any experience with setting it up and using it over time. But it looks promising.

No problem with rear delay-fill loudspeakers being ceiling types provided they are aligned and equalized to blend with the primaries.

The EAW L8CX2XO is a 8" coax ceiling loudspeaker that I and a few of my peers across the US have found to be an exemplary device, with great polar response including through the crossover. They're $175. list each, so may not fit your budget.

I find that there are very few bad ceiling loudspeakers this day provided you don't go stupid cheap. EAW Commercial and JBL Control 2000 series are two that I use often and like quite a bit. They come in different sizes and power ratings. Even the Bose ceiling devices work quite well and have the benefit of utilizing no crossover.

I have used column loudspeakers for 2 lecture hall systems I have designed and with very good results. The Bose MA12 is by far the most compact and least expensive. If it is a larger, reverberant space use two MA12's (stacked) for greater vertical pattern control down into lower frequencies. I also like the Frazier CAT 2x7, which costs a bit more but is a more complex design (has 7 woofers with 7 tweeters that are in an array at the middle of the enclosure (in front of the cntr woofers) and therefore exhibits smoother response). They will build a bass extension module (same size column w just the woofers) for you to enxtend that line. If either of these systems needs to reproduce music I add bass modules such as the Bose MB4, which often can be sat on the floor below the column(s).

I find that the column loudspeakers are easier to fit (physically and visually) into such spaces and they have several other attributes. If the floor is raked/stepped (most lecture halls are) you need to determine that the columns will cover well from the height you can mount them.

The alternative is to use small format 2-way "point source" ldspkrs and various candidates would be the EV Zx1, EAW JFX88 or the JBL Control 28. These can be suspended from above or attached to the side walls.

All of these surface mount loudspeakers come in white or black and can be painted. The column ldspkrs are trickier to mount (especially if you use two stacked devices) and the surface mount ldspkrs are comparatively easy (they all come with well-designed ball & socket pivot arm hardware).

All optimization functions are available in the TOA (or other) DSP. I pay as much attention setting up these systems as I do with larger church and performance systems and if they are completely optimized they work very well with greatly reduced feedback potential.

HTH
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Brad Weber

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2007, 09:12:32 AM »

I have also had very good luck with the Tannoy ceiling speakers.

Watch where the mains are in relation to where the lecturers will be.  I find that it is often just a flat front wall so it is difficult to the get the speakers out in front of the teaching area unless you go ceiling mount.

Quite often I will use stereo mains for program audio and route all the speech through distributed ceiling speakers for lecture halls.  This works very well.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video

Jason Lavoie

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2007, 04:05:37 PM »

I haven't installed any TOA 9000's yet, but lately my favorite (if the system requirements match) is the Symetrix Zone Mix 760, which is a 6 output, 12 input box with some amazing features for a fixed internal structure DSP box.
you also get the ability to control source selection, volumes, and presets from their programmable controllers, which can be mounted anywhere.

Jason
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Tom Young

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2007, 07:02:58 AM »

You get these same features with many of the other multifunction DSP systems out there. My favorite is the Biamp Audia series.

But that's not what the OP asked.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Aaron McQueen

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 08:47:22 AM »

I really need something that is Crestron controlled.  All of the controls are already in place.
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Tom Young

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2007, 07:03:47 AM »

Aaron-

I am no Crestron/AMX interface guy by any stretch. But I would not be surprised if many of the DSP devices that have some sort of external control connection in place can be adapted to work with these control systems.

I would search this further with either or both TOA and Crestron. The guys over at the SynAudCon listserv would also help you out with this.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Brad Weber

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2007, 10:32:04 AM »

Tom is correct.  I've had projects with Crestron or AMX systems tied into Biamp, Symetrix Symnet, Peavey MediaMatrix, Lectrosonics and several other matrix DSP processors.  Most of these have several ways of interfacing with external control systems.  In some of my projects it was simple contact closure for basic preset selection, but in most cases it has been serial control for more advanced functionality.

If you don't have a Crestron programmer handy to verify if they can make it work, then I suggest contacting Crestron and simply asking if they have interfaced with the device in question.  They can usually tell you if they have and in that case, what functions can be controlled and what limitations may exist.
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Brad Weber
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Tom Young

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2007, 12:47:54 PM »

I was just leafing through new TOA lit and was reminded that there are, or may be, 2 serious omissions on TOA's part.

When I evaluated the device I had several years ago the designers at TOA had provided no parametric EQ choices on the inputs. I have forgotten what they do provide but it was lame and simply made no sense what-so-ever. I informed the rep (who sort of had no clue) why this was just plain silly to not provide. They may have added this in later generations/firmware ?

They also seem to have omitted true crossover programming choices. In the spec I just read it looks like there are 12dB per octave high and low pass filters. But that's it.

I have not had the time to thoroughly research these two things and clearly determine what is and isn't provided. But I would make sure you know what you are, and are not, getting befor plunging.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Duane Massey

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2007, 02:28:09 AM »

You will definitely need someone to program a new set of operating codes for your Crestron if you make any changes to the DSP or almost any other device. Make sure you have thought thru exactly what you want to accomplish, and what pieces of gear you want to control. Doing the code for Crestron, AMX, etc, is not the same thing as setting up the DSP.

Call Crestron for help in locating a programmer.
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Duane Massey
Houston, Texas, USA

Steve Rynbrandt

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2007, 11:55:27 AM »

Another good source of information can be the Crestron Yahoo group.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Crestron/

While I do not have any personal experience with the TOA 9000 series control protocol, I do know that some others over there have.

Steve Rynbrandt

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Steve Mate

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2007, 01:34:04 PM »

Aaron and Tom -

Points of clarification:

The 9000 Series features 10 bands of parametric eq on each input using the dual mic/line input module, model D-001T. There are also 10 bands of parametric eq on each of the two built-in amplifier outputs and on each line output using the dual line output module, model T-001T.

Control modules for the 9000 Series are readily available from both AMX and Crestron. A control protocol document is also available for download from http://toaelectronics.com/amp0011.asp.

I hope this helps!

Best Regards,

Steve Mate
Director of Marketing
TOA Electronics, Inc.
1-800-733-7088, ext. 255
www.toaelectronics.com
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Tom Young

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2007, 01:47:43 PM »

Steve-

Thanks for the clarifications.

How about crossovers. What is available ?
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Steve Mate

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2007, 06:47:41 PM »

Tom -

By crossovers, I assume you mean true "speaker processor" type filters (Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley, etc.). Unfortunately, at the target price-point, these are not included in the 9000 Series. Each input and output channel includes the 10-band parametric EQ, high/low shelving (bass/treble) and high/low pass filters (12 dB/oct.). The HPF and LPF are intended for use in background/foreground music system applications (ex. ceiling speakers and subwoofers).

As you may also be aware, TOA does offer several models with serious speaker processor filtering in models DP-K1 (new), D-901 and DP-0206. More information is at http://toaelectronics.com/sig0000.asp.

Best Regards,

Steve Mate
Director of Marketing
TOA Electronics, Inc.
1-800-733-7088, ext. 255
www.toaelectronics.com
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Jon Bannan

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Re: TOA 9000 Series
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2007, 03:22:38 PM »

Hey Aaron,

We have a 9000 installed with a Crestron CP2E and TPS 3100L in our Aquatics Center on campus.  We've been very happy with it.  The routing is pretty easy to work with.  And with the Crestron control, I've given the Aquatics director a web interface so he can control the system, turn on zones, adjust volume, etc from his office instead of going next door to the room with the touch panel installed.  They are very happy with it.  Plus with the routing, it allows you to setup zones on your outputs.

Jon
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