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Author Topic: JBL MRX512M UG from Yamaha BR12M?  (Read 6775 times)

Paul M.Sanders

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Re: JBL MRX512M UG from Yamaha BR12M?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2007, 11:38:11 pm »

Adam Mottley wrote on Tue, 06 February 2007 21:58


I see that you are using a Yamaha O1v96. That desk has a LOT of options when it comes to equalization, enough that I'd imagine you ought to be able to get a handle on the monitors without too much fiddling, provided that things are set up in a good sort of way. A few things to ponder:

1) The board has eight auxes. You should, ideally, have each wedge assigned to its own aux. This means, at the minimum, an amp channel per wedge/mix. Each of your auxes has a nice four band parametric EQ on its output.



I went through this laundry list. I guess a stock 01V (with no extra slot cards or any sort of d/a converters), really only has 4 practical aux outs via the OMNI connectors, which is fine for my needs anyway. Am I right?

Quote

3) Are you splitting your vox channels ? If not, do so. On the O1v96, you can soft patch a digital split, allowing each (for example) vox mic to have a fader/channel strip for FOH and monitors sends, respectively. This allows you to have completely independent control of these mics for both FOH and monitor signal, PER MIC.  The beauty of this arrangement is that now you have another four band parametric on each mic. Remember that on your doubled channels, the channels used for FOH have no auxes feeding wedge mixes, and the channels used for monitors are not assigned to any group or master outputs (they are just there to provide aux sends for monitor mixes).
[/qoute]

THIS....THIS, is the single largest thing that was contributing to my problem! Turns out I hadn't discovered this feature of the 01V, so I was sending my vocal mic signal (chan 1) to the aux out for my monitor mix, which also sent it's EQ setting, which was shaped to work in the front of house mix, which included some bumps in key frequencies that, once sent to the monitor system, caused me BIG problems!

I now each input is being split between 1-16 and 17-32. I apply compression, EQ, etc to the 1-16 channels for FOH mix, and cut all that, and add extra gating for the 17-32 channels. Also, I can add verb to the vocals on 17-32 so I have it in the monitors, but not in the FOH. Nice.

I also have backed off the input gain. I'm used to studio techniques where we go for as much gain as possible withough clipping, but I guess this live sound thing is a little different.

The system just FEELs more stable now, but the Yamaha monitors are still problematic in my setup. The JBL's are staying, and I may even upgrade one of them to the SRX712M for my vocal monitor to give that extra little bit. If it doesn't make a difference, I'll take it back.

Quote:



4) Look at your gain/EQ structure closely. If it were me, and I were starting from a fresh perspective, this is what I'd do. Flatten all EQ's related to the vox mics (including any busses and the master), and establish proper gain for the mic(s) (with the amps off). Apply a HP filter on both the FOH and monitor channel EQ/s, per mic. A good starting frequency is around 100hz, although you may find that the actual frequency used is a bit different in actual practice. Since you are on what appears to be a small stage, bring the mains up, followed by monitor mixes one at a time. Make appropriate cuts on the monitor channel EQ's (you may have to compensate on FOH vox EQ's a bit to account for room issues, etc). The parametrics on the aux outputs can then be used to flatten your wedge response(s).




Adam, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, drop in and I'll set you up. Thank you for taking the time to outline this. I used it sortof like a setup guide.

Actually, at the end of the day, I knew most everything I needed, but I was prompted to learn a lot more about he 01V setup capabilities, and needed to rethink my input gain approach.

In the process, I realized some serious limitations of my monitors and I consider the upgrade substantial for my specific purpose.

A lot of good came from this and I believe I am well on the way to getting a much better handle on my system. Most excellent!
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Dan Thompson

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Re: JBL MRX512M UG from Yamaha BR12M?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2007, 09:15:17 am »

Paul,

We went through all this the other day. The first question I asked was if the Aux sends were pre-fader (i.e. before the eq and channel fader). You assured me that they were. I also suggested that your input trim on the vocal channel both looked and sounded hot. Proper gain structure and routing are going to be required to get any combination of gear to work. The tools are in place (the behringer piece is more than up to the task of monitor duty), but you've got to be sure that you're not working at cross purposes. Splitting the vocal channels is awesome, but not required. Sending the Aux pre-fader is required for proper monitor setup. Spend some time getting to know the mixer, then set levels appropriately (input trim, aux send, master aux send), then notch out the appropriate frequencies. There is no magic here, but it does take some time and a methodical approach. Good luck, and let me know if I can help.

Dan
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Paul M.Sanders

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Re: JBL MRX512M UG from Yamaha BR12M?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2007, 10:44:51 am »

Dan Thompson wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 08:15

Paul,

We went through all this the other day. The first question I asked was if the Aux sends were pre-fader (i.e. before the eq and channel fader). You assured me that they were. I also suggested that your input trim on the vocal channel both looked and sounded hot. Proper gain structure and routing are going to be required to get any combination of gear to work. The tools are in place (the behringer piece is more than up to the task of monitor duty), but you've got to be sure that you're not working at cross purposes. Splitting the vocal channels is awesome, but not required. Sending the Aux pre-fader is required for proper monitor setup. Spend some time getting to know the mixer, then set levels appropriately (input trim, aux send, master aux send), then notch out the appropriate frequencies. There is no magic here, but it does take some time and a methodical approach. Good luck, and let me know if I can help.

Dan


Sorry Dan, I didn't lend credit everywhere it was due. My appologies. You touched on most everthing I did yesterday, I just didn't know enough about the mixer when you came here to know there were things getting in the way there.

Your great suggestions fell on a cloudy mind at that point in time.

The illumination about what the mixer CAN do which lead me to dig out the manual and figure out how to MAKE it do that was especially helpful for me. You had all the right ideas though Dan and I appreciate you're coming up.

In my case, I DID need to have the channels split though. The 01V does tap sends pre fader, but post EQ, and the EQ was what was hosing me.

I've taken the Behringer out of the monitor rack and just gone back with a 2 channel DBX 31band EQ and the Peavey 31 band. Until I get a chance to understand the Behringer better, I want to keep it simple because the way it's working now, it's doing more harm than good because I still don't fully understand how to use it.

I'll regroup and experiment later, but for now I need to get this thing locked in and get back to work!

Thanks again!

Paul



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Dan Thompson

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Re: JBL MRX512M UG from Yamaha BR12M?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2007, 01:21:47 pm »

Thanks Paul. I wasn't looking for credit, just wanted to keep you from spinning your wheels. That board is a marvel, just don't let it become part of the problem. Make sure you understand what's required, then find out how to do it. I'll reemphasize to be sure that there is no compression on the aux sends.

The biggest advantage of the Behringer is that it has up to 10 bands (maybe 12?) of parametric eq which is far more surgical than the graphic, plus it has the graphic. It also offers the makeup gain you asked about in an earlier post, although your graphic eq may as well.

Which Eon were you thinking of using? While they are a bit ungainly, the 10" version is not too large and works well as a monitor. You've got the amps, why not stay passive? As mentioned by others, the extra $ spent on better passive boxes may yield improvement.

I know you felt that we were going through a lot of trouble to ring those monitors but sometimes thats just what it takes. Glad to hear you've got things headed in the right direction, let me know if I can help.

Dan
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Paul M.Sanders

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Re: JBL MRX512M UG from Yamaha BR12M?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2007, 12:26:15 pm »

Dan Thompson wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 12:21

Thanks Paul. I wasn't looking for credit, just wanted to keep you from spinning your wheels. That board is a marvel, just don't let it become part of the problem. Make sure you understand what's required, then find out how to do it. I'll reemphasize to be sure that there is no compression on the aux sends.

The biggest advantage of the Behringer is that it has up to 10 bands (maybe 12?) of parametric eq which is far more surgical than the graphic, plus it has the graphic. It also offers the makeup gain you asked about in an earlier post, although your graphic eq may as well.

Which Eon were you thinking of using? While they are a bit ungainly, the 10" version is not too large and works well as a monitor. You've got the amps, why not stay passive? As mentioned by others, the extra $ spent on better passive boxes may yield improvement.

I know you felt that we were going through a lot of trouble to ring those monitors but sometimes thats just what it takes. Glad to hear you've got things headed in the right direction, let me know if I can help.

Dan


Dan, in m case it didn't/shouldn't take that much because I didn't have the mixer configured the best way.

Nope, no compression on the auxes or channels feeding the auxes, though I'm gating them, which should help things I think.

I'm doing the single SRX712M  pushed by the amp you sold me in bridged mode. I had tried the MRX512M's and they were a substantial improvement to the Yamahas in my application, and they say the SRX is a big step up from the MRX in terms of smooth volume without feedback, so I'm going to give them a shot.

I'm exchanging the other two BRX's for Eon15 G2's, and if I don't like them as monitors I'll fly them and pull my SRM450's for the other two monitors.

With this arrangement I've added two powered speakers that can be used as mains for offsite gigs (we do them sometimes) and upgraded my monitors at the same time.

I believe that most folks will be able to work with either the EON's or the 450's as monitors, and I can move the SRX712M wherever it needs to go for the kahuna vocalist who wants the BEST of my moninitors.

By the way, I've tested my monitoring setup, now that I've reconfigured my mixer, with the MRX512M's and was able to get the best monitor sound and volume I've ever had in that room without even having to touch any EQ, so I'm very optimistic this setup will serve me well and cover most any situation now.

Thanks for coming up. Stop by some time and hear the difference that mixer reconfig made. I sure wish I'd understood enough about the mixer config options while you were there, we could have worked that out on the spot.

BUT, I probably would have never tried the upgrades speaker route either, and I discovered a huge improvement there too, though I could have probably made the Yamahas work. But to me, it's worth it, and now I'll have the gear to sue for mains for offsite gigs (I had to take my SRM450's off their riggings last gig, and that was NO fun at all!).

Cheers,

Paul
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