ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 22   Go Down

Author Topic: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II  (Read 58346 times)

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2007, 07:14:43 pm »

There were several things that I would have liked to have seen changed, or set forth in the beginning.

When the "rules" change mid stream, it makes it a little unfair to teh earlier "competitors".

But that is part of doing these types of things.  You learn what is good and bad about the way it is conducted.  And hopefully the next time you learn how to do it better.

All in all I think it went well, but could have been conducted a little different.  But this was like you say, because we did not have a clearly defined course beforehand and did not stick to the same throughout.

Blind tests can be very interesting, but take a good bit more organization ahead of time (setup wise). And as you say you need a much larger area. But since we humans are so visually stimulated, you will get better true results in a blind test.

I would be glad to put in my .02 worth, if and when the time comes again.

I agree 1000% regarding getting more popular tour/club cabinets to go up against.  We probably need to go to private owners or see about renting some if the manufacturers will not provide them.  Of course if we do that, you have to be careful not to damage them.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Wil Davis

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
    • http://www.k1wd.com
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2007, 07:29:47 pm »

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Sun, 04 February 2007 12:57

snip…
Most of the testing was reasonable volume, eh?

-Bink


…eh?  …what? …pardon?   Sad


Actually, it was pretty loud (I measured 123dB at the back of the room next to the mixing console; my SPL meter overloaded at 131dB about 6' from the front of the cabs being tested), but for the most part the sound was very clean;  I find that I can tolerate loud/clean/low much more than loud/distorted/low-mid-high.  

During the loud parts I was wearing 20dB earplugs, and even after 2 days, found that I was not getting fatigued by the high sound level;  (although it might have been a different story if I'd been living on the 5th floor across the street… Rolling Eyes )

- Wil

Logged
"……………………" - Marcel Marceau

Too Tall (Curtis H. List)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1591
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2007, 09:56:25 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Sun, 04 February 2007 13:58

We have setup lots of blind tests between full range boxes.  It can be difficult to set a level playing field.  The low end response in particular (and overall flatness of the response) is a tough puppy to be "fair" with.  

What we have decided is the best way (we are open to other opinions however) is to put full range pink noise into each one and set the level as close as possible using a C weighted SPL meter.  We use a custom switcher that I designed/built that allows for individual adjustments over the cabinets and then allows for bypassing each level control so sensitivity differences can also be heard.

When you listen to them you will hear (with different source material) that some boxes sound louder than others and on other tracks the levels seem more matched.

The boxes with the most lowend will sound warmer and will skew the "sound" of the upper freq.  When you have the extra extension on the low end end the higher freq don't seem as harsh.

So if you say to highpass all the cabinets at say 100Hz, you are unfairly robbing performance of the cabinets that are capable of truly full range response.  You would be surprised how many cabinets that claim to be full range really aren't-despite what the specs say.

When you have a switcher and multiple boxes setup next to each other, you can really hear all sorts of differences between boxes.  The little details really stand out.

A shootout would be fairly hard thing to do-especially in a small area as you would have to have at least 2 of each box (to check for arrayability and how well they play together) and be able to switch easily between them.

I think there would have to be some strict guidelines setup as to what will and what won't be done during the comparisons.

I think you would have to set some guidelines as to different types of boxes that should be compaired to each other-

It would be really telling however.



When comparing I would use the 500Hz to 2kHz region. Make them even for level right through the mids. If one box has more lows let them stick out and the same for any peaks in the highs. You are going to hear the tonal balance difference no mater what you do so let the mids be the same for all.
Logged
Too Tall
        Curtis H. List    
             Bridgeport, Mich.   
        I.A.T.S.E. Local # 274 (Gold Card)
        Lansing, Mich
Independent Live Sound Engineer (and I'm Tall Too!)

Paul Bell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1009
    • http://pbellsound.com/
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2007, 11:04:10 pm »

Can somebody start a thread on top boxes so we can leave the sub shootout thread a sub shootout thread?
Logged
Paul Bell
PBell Sound New York City
paulATpbellsound.com
User/provider for:
McCauley, BASSMAXX, APB DynaSonics, QSC, Ashly, DBX, Rane Digital, Rapco, Faital Pro

Tom Danley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 500
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2007, 11:48:33 am »

Hi

Protocol is an important part of measuring or comparing anything.
As Ivan said “When the "rules" change mid stream, it makes it a little unfair to the earlier "competitors".  In this case, he refers to the request to “crank it up” which came right after our boxes had been auditioned.
This and the recorded peaks may lead to impressions like Mark’s “Sounds like comparing the space shuttle takeoff to a bunch of 747s taking off” when they never even blasted the TH-215’s.

While I am pleased people like the sound quality, I am a little concerned that just how loud they can go was not clearly demonstrated.    The difference is a little like the difference in output between a sealed and vented box of equal size, except the Tapped horn doesn’t add the phase shift / group delay of the vented box and doesn’t have the drooped bass response / sound of a small horn.

Personally, I will be interested to see what the measurements said where each box was driven at a known Voltage (following a protocol).   From those, one can calculate the difference in drive power due to the different nominal impedances and determine efficiency differences.

More importantly I would echo David, Ivan and others that the most useful thing that can be gained by these kinds of events (direct side by side listening) is that some of the biggest names with the highest price tags have products, which in this situation are figuratively “emperors without cloths”.  
This is possible because acoustic memory is very poor, people rarely get to hear anything side by side with anything else combined with big buck Boseification image building. In my personal opinion (not DSL’s ), there are some highly polished, highly respected acoustical turds floating in great numbers out there.
You can see / hear / identify them, or not,  when doing side by sides.


Lastly, I would again echo David at his suggestion that this kind of thing be done in a larger space, Ideally this would be outside or a stadium etc where measurements would be or nearly are half space and at a distance which removes the source size / box size errors which appear near field.
Also, this lets people move farther away back to where ones ears are more linear and more able to hear some speaker issues (where as local noise is more audible up close).
Anyway, I’ll cut this off here and get back to work.
Best,

Tom

Logged

David J Lee

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2007, 04:28:40 pm »

Tom Danley wrote on Mon, 05 February 2007 10:48

Hi

In my personal opinion (not DSL’s ), there are some highly polished, highly respected acoustical turds floating in great numbers out there.
You can see / hear / identify them, or not,  when doing side by sides.






Now that's funny!  And how many hours have the world's harworking sound engineers had to spend polishing turds?  

Quote:




Lastly, I would again echo David at his suggestion that this kind of thing be done in a larger space, Ideally this would be outside or a stadium etc where measurements would be or nearly are half space and at a distance which removes the source size / box size errors which appear near field.
Also, this lets people move farther away back to where ones ears are more linear and more able to hear some speaker issues (where as local noise is more audible up close).
Anyway, I’ll cut this off here and get back to work.
Best,

Tom




It would be nice to get as much participation in the outdoor shootout that Paul got in the New York one.  Anyone reading this who knows af a good location for such an event, please make it known.  The dragstrip in Tulsa, OK. is not bad but definitely not ideal.  

The closest I have experienced to this is the Ultrafest event in Miami.  If you go there you can hear many of the big rigs like Meyer and Nexo and Renkus Heinz and BASSMAXX and, at least last year, the TH115s. They are side by side in a way, but they are all on at the same time!!!  It also serves as a 12 hour torture test.  More big fun!!
Logged
David J. Lee
BASSMAXX
What You Hear Is True
davidlee(at)bassmaxx.com

Mark "Bass Pig" Weiss

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 159
    • http://www.basspig.com
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2007, 04:40:55 pm »

Tim McCulloch wrote on Sun, 04 February 2007 18:42

Hi Mark-

The Bassmaxx Triples had been playing when the neighbor across the street came over with an attitude and threatening to call the police...........

Paul Bell had anticipated complaints from neighbors in the spaces above Club Rebel.......

Tim Mc


One would think they had to have heard ALL of the testing, but then if the club's own sound system played every night, wouldn't the neighbors complain about that too? Or was this testing THAT much louder that it penetrated both the building, crossing, what I would imagine is a very wide street (120' perhaps for typical downtown Manhattan thoroughfares?) and then had to penetrate the building across the street.
Now if both buildings were supported on a number of common members that span across the street and can conduct vibrations, then I guess that could explain it, but I thought all NYC buildings were built on pylons that went directly into bedrock below them. If so, then the vibrations had to come via other paths.
Given my own experience with Bassmaxx subs, I suppose it is certainly quite possible in NYC. It would have been interesting to see a SPL reading at the 5th floor apartment, both indoors and out. I'm guessing it had to be well over 90dB in the 40-60Hz range.
Nonetheless, it was a very interesting anectdote to read about, which added a unique flavor to this event.

John Roberts {JR}

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 0
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2007, 05:01:24 pm »

Mark "Bass Pig" Weiss wrote on Mon, 05 February 2007 15:40



One would think they had to have heard ALL of the testing, but then if the club's own sound system played every night, wouldn't the neighbors complain about that too? Or was this testing THAT much louder that it penetrated both the building, crossing, what I would imagine is a very wide street (120' perhaps for typical downtown Manhattan thoroughfares?) and then had to penetrate the building across the street.
Now if both buildings were supported on a number of common members that span across the street and can conduct vibrations, then I guess that could explain it, but I thought all NYC buildings were built on pylons that went directly into bedrock below them. If so, then the vibrations had to come via other paths.
Given my own experience with Bassmaxx subs, I suppose it is certainly quite possible in NYC. It would have been interesting to see a SPL reading at the 5th floor apartment, both indoors and out. I'm guessing it had to be well over 90dB in the 40-60Hz range.
Nonetheless, it was a very interesting anectdote to read about, which added a unique flavor to this event.



Walking on the street in Manhattan is a little like walking on the deck of an aircraft carrier, but perhaps not as solid   Laughing .

Who knows what path or resonances the LF might excite.

JR
Logged
 https://www.resotune.com/


Tune it, or don't play it...
-----

Bennett Prescott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8924
    • http://www.adraudio.com
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2007, 06:15:31 pm »

David,

I know spaces large enough but they're all in NH, and that's more than a little inconvenient for most attendees. Naturally, we'd want to do it in the summer, too.

If anyone has a large space to do such testing in, for subs or tops or whatever, as long as it's not going to happen too soon (I'm barely recovered from this last one!) I'll provide some support.
Logged
-- Bennett Prescott
Director of North American Sales
ADRaudio d.o.o.
Cell: (518) 488-7190

"Give me 6dB and I shall move the world." -Archimedes

Pascal Pincosy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2007, 06:55:43 pm »

Tom Danley wrote on Mon, 05 February 2007 16:48

Hi

Protocol is an important part of measuring or comparing anything.
As Ivan said “When the "rules" change mid stream, it makes it a little unfair to the earlier "competitors".  In this case, he refers to the request to “crank it up” which came right after our boxes had been auditioned.
This and the recorded peaks may lead to impressions like Mark’s “Sounds like comparing the space shuttle takeoff to a bunch of 747s taking off” when they never even blasted the TH-215’s.



Hi Tom, I posted a similar comment earlier but it seemed to have gotten lost in the shuffle to this new thread. Extrapolating the SPL readings, one would see that your TH-215's recorded a peak that was >2dB louder than specs on your web site. Not a very accurate comparison considering room gain and all, but still.

Perhaps I'm not understanding the methodology used to apply power to the speakers. Who made the determination on how much power was applied to each cabinet and why were some boxes pushed hard and not others?

Either way, the measurements will speak for themselves. Easy enough to calculate peaks for each cabinet from the sensitivity readings. Tom, maybe you could annotate the thread with updated specs for the TH-215's power-handling so that one could calculate peak output with the new numbers?
Logged
Know:Audio
--------------------------------
US Distributor: Trabes/MG Srl
Speaker Lifts-Truss-Roof Systems
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 22   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.024 seconds with 21 queries.