ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13]   Go Down

Author Topic: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007  (Read 51426 times)

Elliot Thompson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1573
50 Hertz Drop
« Reply #120 on: February 03, 2007, 11:33:58 am »

Ivan.

Didn't you mention that the room offered a 50 Hertz drop, why all the boxes dipped within that region?


Best Regards,
Logged
Elliot

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: 50 Hertz Drop
« Reply #121 on: February 03, 2007, 11:57:18 am »

That was the first common "issue" I noticed when we started the process.  It was later when I started laying the graphs on top of each other that I noticed the other "trends".  As you can see, every sub had the same dip.

This could very well have been a room modal issue at the mic position.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Mark Seaton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout Results
« Reply #122 on: February 03, 2007, 01:38:03 pm »

Mac Kerr wrote on Thu, 01 February 2007 21:04

John Chiara wrote on Thu, 01 February 2007 21:58

Tom Danley wrote on Thu, 01 February 2007 11:25

Hey Paul, Guys

Sounds like you had fun and your neighbors had ?enough? bass.

From what I understand at some point the board operator was asked to ?crank it up? to see what the boxes could do ?flat out?.

I was curious, which of the Boxes did you push to max output?
Best,

Tom Danley



According to Ivan..not the Danley's... Sad
We got smoke out of the TH115. I'd say that was pushing it to the max. We might not have had maximum SPL at that moment because it turned out only 1 speaker was working because only 1 of the 2 speaker cables was plugged in at the amp output.

Mac



Hi Mac,

While it outwardly seems that it's just "adding another box," that's not the whole picture.  A horn makes for a long acoustic pathway that has a reactive device (speaker/driver) loaded to it.  From many measurements of bDeaps, BassTech7s, etc, I have repeatedly observed an adjacent, unpowered box "suck up" significant energy.  So I would point out that having the un-connected TH-115 next to the one playing was handicapping it.

I'm well behind on following all the posts, and will try and catch up as time permits.
Logged
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." - Daniel H. Burnham

Mac Kerr

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10223
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout Results
« Reply #123 on: February 03, 2007, 01:43:12 pm »

Mark Seaton wrote on Sat, 03 February 2007 13:38


While it outwardly seems that it's just "adding another box," that's not the whole picture.  A horn makes for a long acoustic pathway that has a reactive device (speaker/driver) loaded to it.  From many measurements of bDeaps, BassTech7s, etc, I have repeatedly observed an adjacent, unpowered box "suck up" significant energy.  So I would point out that having the un-connected TH-115 next to the one playing was handicapping it.
Good point. I was vaguely aware of that, but the synapses weren't firing.  Embarassed

Mac
Logged

Mark Seaton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
Re: 50 Hertz Drop
« Reply #124 on: February 03, 2007, 02:14:59 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Sat, 03 February 2007 10:57

That was the first common "issue" I noticed when we started the process.  It was later when I started laying the graphs on top of each other that I noticed the other "trends".  As you can see, every sub had the same dip.

This could very well have been a room modal issue at the mic position.



We most certainly have many influences from the room in the measurements.  This was fully expected and understood.  The 4' measurement distance managed to keep the direct sound dominant enough to give us repeatable measurements that have some relation to an outdoor measurement.  I'll see later if I can get a general correlation to Jeff's Growlers and the response measured in our test, but right now the measurements I have of the Growler were in about 28 deg weather.  Which BTW would seem like a heat wave in Chicago right now!

Unfortunately it wasn't practical to take ultra-high level sweeps on all of the subwoofers BEFORE listening, as it would have been much too likely/easy to kill many good performers.  The response and distortion measurements and the relative differences observed at 2.8V vs. 28V should show some interesting differences and behavior. The +3dB & +5dB graphs will show what happens as the power starts increasing, but there are some complicating factors.

One problem I ran into was with the phantom power provided by the TEF25.  It is solid when powered with the wall wart, and not a problem for my less demanding TEF04 or SuperLux mic, but the Earthworks M30 is a bit more sensitive.  I realized about 1/3rd of the way in that I had forgotten to power with the wall-wart, after I saw some clipping on the input to the TEF on I think the EM horn (will check later).  We then corrected the phantom power issue and re-calibrated, confirming before and after measurmenets of the same box and continued on without input clipping on the TEF.  This means I have less confidence in +3dB & +5dB measurements, particularly at higher SPLs.

Obviously this has no impact on the listening or on what was observed the second day with the RTA displaying a fast 1/6th reading while keeping track of peak hold.
Logged
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." - Daniel H. Burnham

Rob Spence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2401
Re: 50 Hertz Drop
« Reply #125 on: February 03, 2007, 03:59:52 pm »

Perhaps Paul can confirm or correct this... I believe that the walls of the stage (and maybe the ceiling) had 2" accoustic treatment on them. I think that the room ceiling did too as well as the front wall of the overhead balcony (the front of the DJ area).

Paul?
Logged
Rob Spence
Lynx Audio Services
E-Mail Rob -at- LynxAudioServices -dot- com

Staying out of trouble
  Is easier than
Getting out of trouble

Your local Whirlwind Dealer

David J Lee

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout Results
« Reply #126 on: February 03, 2007, 04:00:38 pm »

Bennett Prescott wrote on Fri, 02 February 2007 22:46

David J Lee wrote on Fri, 02 February 2007 16:09

Just a question here for the logical and practical minded folks out there:  What makes a cardioid cabinet a cardioid cabinet?  Marketing hype?  Isn't a cabinet cardioid if it delivers significantly more energy to the front than it does to the rear?  Is cardioid an output pattern or is it a marketing buzzword that allows manufacturers to charge more for boxes that have more drivers, processing and amplifiers in them?

David,

I've read this several times and I can still only see it as an unjustified attack on our design and company philosophy. Have I somehow wronged you? Are you suggesting that our product doesn't meet spec?

I think what makes a cardioid pattern is fairly well understood, and its limitations are also fairly well understood. We happen to be getting additional front to rear rejection from a phase network and rear facing drivers. You're doing it with large horns. Both methods are valid, and I think we're both getting remarkable output from a relatively compact box.

The end result is what's important. We're not sneaking around in the dark trying to foist extra drivers and amplifier channels on our customers, and I am personally insulted by your insinuation that we would be in business to fool people into buying "extra" components.



Whoa there, Bennett!  

Maybe you should read it agian. You're reading in things I never said.  You're inferring a lot of bad intent on my part which simply isn't the case.  You are not my enemy, Bennett. I have nothing but the highest regard for you and your products.  I can't imagine what would give you the idea that I would attack you?  Why would I want to do that?  Of course you haven't wronged me, that's ridiculous!  On a personal level I found you to be a super nice, very honest and helpful guy.  

I heard your cardioid box and thought it was very well behaved, loud and deep as well as having well controlled amplifiers and limiters.  It was also very compact and lightweight for the amount of output it produced and I have never even seen any of your marketing materials so I'm definitly not accusing you or ADR of producing the 'cardioid subwoofer' marketing hype.

I have no beef with your company philosophy, either.  I fully embrace the idea of self-powered, internally processed loudspeakers.  I intend to be selling some in the near future.  

I certainly didn't insinuate that you were trying to fool people into buying unneccesary components.  Those are your words, not mine.  I think this misunderstanding may stem from the fact that yours was the only box at the shootout that was self-powered and actively processed to be cardioid.  While it was the only one there, it's not the only one on the market.  Nexo and Meyer also make them, as do others, and it was not your box that was foremost in my mind when I went ranting about this buzzword.  It was actually another manufacturer whose 'cardioid subwoofer' I have heard in arrays of 16 boxes.  

Granted it's an assumption but I was sure that when Scott called the Z-5000 a 'non cardioid subwoofer' he wasn't making a direct comparison to your box but rather to a larger group of boxes that are specifically marketed as cardioid subwoofers.  His comment simply made me think that if a subwoofer can maintain decent pattern control to a reasonably low frequency, no matter how it does it, it should be considered a cardiod box.  My question to myself was why did he consider the Z-5000 to be non-cardioid when it does exhibit a cardioid pattern?

I met Scott, and, like you and I, he certainly seems to be a knowledgable, reasonable and thoughtful guy.  I certainly wasn't implying that he did something wrong by calling the Z-5000 an non cardioid box.  To me it simply appeared that Scott considered the Z-5000 to be non-cardioid because either A) it didn't have any additional components that made it actively cardioid or B) he hadn't seen any marketing materials that referred to it as a cardioid design, or perhaps C) all of the above.  This was enlightening to me.  To me, in terms of subwoofers, cardioid is a description of an output pattern but how it is achieved is not a part of the definition in my mind.  There are numerous different ways to produce a cardioid pattern, all of them are valid and some are more effective than others at producing certain results.  My point was that it seems the only method that's being called cardioid right now is the method you guys, Nexo and Meyer are using and there still is more than one way to skin that cat.  

I'm sorry you felt offended, Benett.  My comments really weren't about you or your box.  They were about the overall perception that there is only one way to build a cardioid box.  To be perfectly clear, no one should infer from my comments that Bennet Prescott or Eona ADR are producing loudspeakers that don't meet spec or include any unnecessary components.  I've no doubt that all the compnents in them are necessary and functional to produce the design objective.  Nor should you believe for a moment that I harbor any ill will toward you, Bennett.  I certainly didn't expect you to take my comments personally.  I'm not in the habit of making personal attacks on anyone.  I enjoyed meeting you, I appreciate all you did to make the event happen and run smoothly and I wish you the best success in your endeavors.

I bid you peace and happiness, my friend.
Logged
David J. Lee
BASSMAXX
What You Hear Is True
davidlee(at)bassmaxx.com

Iain_Macdonald

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1116
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout Results
« Reply #127 on: February 03, 2007, 04:06:41 pm »

Tom Danley wrote on Fri, 02 February 2007 14:14

Hi Elliott

The TH-215’s have a new drivers in them too, these should be....

Tom Danley




Were these new drivers just experimental for the shootout, or are they going to be a standard item ?


Iain.
Logged

Dave Dermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2011
    • http://www.geocities.com/livesound101/
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #128 on: February 10, 2007, 03:58:44 pm »

This thread has been locked at just over 100 posts in an effort to make the discussion easier to follow.

The continuation of this discussion can be found here:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/20482/81/

Thank you for your time, patience, and participation.

Dave Dermont
Logged
Dave Dermont - Chief Lizard, LAB Lounge

WARNING: Dates In Calendar May Be Closer Than They Appear
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.036 seconds with 20 queries.