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Author Topic: Can you find better.  (Read 12028 times)

Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Can you find better.
« on: December 29, 2006, 08:12:26 am »

     I possed a challange a long time ago, and no one who tried to step up seemed to fully understand the criteria.

    Can anyone find any driver that bests the

lab12 as a general purpose subwoofer, subwoofer anywhere close to the same price range.

    I think it really takes the ability to model or measure other drivers against it to make these determinations.  As far as I found, the LAB 12 is still the best bang for the buck.

It seems some of the Higher XMAX much more expensive alternatives often seem to make mechanical noise well before over excurion is reached which to me makes them much less useful, and certainly not worth the added cost.

    I guess I will expand the criteria to can anyone find a single 18 that can get the same performance as 4 Lab 12 drivers in the same price range (As they are about the same SD and VAS).

    I dare you, tripple dog dare you to even.

Thanks for specing this kick ass driver Tom!!!

Antone-

   
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leon douven

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Re: Can you find better.
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2006, 02:25:07 pm »

this one??
acoupower 18"
the site seems offline

Best regards
Leon

1) High power handling. 2,000 to 3,600W RMS, depending on the application. 2) Flat response. Both drivers are flat +-1dB to 500 Hz. Not typical of high power subs... but that way by design. This extend response allows the drivers to be used with a wide array of crossover frequencies and slopes.
3) Very low power compression. Inaudible for most applications.
4) Super linearity. 100% linear BL product for +18mm of travel in EACH direction. Proprietary spider and precise details in the surround provide exceptional mechanical linearity and smooth overdrive characteristics.
5) Extremely low distortion, below the threshold of audibility for most of the output envelope.
6) We are experts in Acoustic Power Density. These drivers have the highest low frequency output ever obtained in standard 15" and 18" sizes thanks to 78mm of travel, high power handling and low power compression. In many applications, one driver can be used where two are being used now.
7) Relatively simple and bullet proof design. We believe in the KISS principle.
Parameters optimized for very low frequency performance. These drivers can still be used to generate ludicrous amounts of "standard" bass (50-100 Hz) if needed, but they have been designed to excel at very low frequencies, requiring little or no equalization for many properly designed subwoofer applications, maximizing the power available from amplifiers.

18"
Sd = 0.108 m^2
Cms = 106.6 um/N
Vas = 174 liters
Re = 6.2 ohms
Mms = 305 g See Below
Fo = 28.2 Hz
BL = 23.3 t*m See Below
Qe = 0.62
Qm = 8.90
Qt = 0.58
SPL = 90.5 See Below

The data above is derived from the impedance curves. Note that the Mms values above includes ALL of the acoustic mass as well, which is substantial in subwoofers. In addition, the actual BL values for these drivers is about 8% higher than the parameters above. As a result of both of these measurement artifacts, the calculated SPL 1W/1m dB's are lower than actual SPL's by 0.5 to 1.5dB. We have provided the actual SPL's in the data above.

Overall Diameter = 462mm
Mounting Holes = ( 6.4mm holes on a 441mm B.C.D.
Cut Out = 425mm ; Maximum thickness of baffle at cut out = 1.25" (32mm)
Weight = approximately 44 Lbs.
Depths assuming "drop in" or "standard" mounting:
Mounting surface to back of driver = 224.50mm
Mounting surface to top of surround roll, full excursion = 48mm
Diameter for the depth above = 345mm nominal. Suggest you use 355mm to account for the cumulative errors associated with cabinet and grill errors... depending on the application
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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Can you find better.
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2006, 04:42:56 pm »

     Yes a very nice driver, by a fantastic engineer.  But again you missed the point.  IS IT ANYWHERE NEAR THE SAME PRICE RANGE OF 4 LAB 12's??????

    There is also the added convieninence factor that one has the option to not build one ludicrously large cab when using the 4 12's.

Antone-
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Mark "Bass Pig" Weiss

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Re: Can you find better.
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2007, 10:57:12 pm »

Bassmaxx ZR18 would be my choice. More efficient than the AccouPower, and less expensive. And, a muc stronger cone, if you order it with the fiberglass/Kevlar cones. I don't consider a paper-coned driver to be a real woofer. Smile

Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Can you find better.
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2007, 02:07:19 pm »

     The Cones in the Basstech 7 are paper (pulp)  with some sort of EPOXY like resin holding them together.  They survive greater than 3:1 compression ratio loading.

    I believe the Lab 12's are some sort of epoxy impregnated paper.  I don't think radial or concentric fatigue is a common failure for Lab 12's.  There's nothing any less subwoofer worthy about them than Kevlar cone drivers.

    Again what is the Retail cost of the Bassmaxx drivers 1 18vs 4 Lab 12's?.

    The Adire Tumult 18 looks pretty damn cool too but an optimal vented enclosure for one of them makes an awfuly un-weildy box.

    For a little more cost than 4 Lab 12's you get a bit more extension and about the same sensitivity.  But Less Configurable.

    And Remember that a drivers sensitivity figures seldom has anything to do with its SPL performance below 80Hz.

Antone-

P.S. I have a sneaky suspicion that the AccouPower Drivers are inherently Better Sub Bass Transducers than any of the motors based off of the Aura/Seismic NRT designs.  They seem to be really monsters down to about 40Hz.  But don't seem to have a very linear response curve if you try and extend them down much lower.  Someone here mention something about Drivers with a really high BL tend to be better suited for Midbass/Bass.  I would be interested in hearing an elaboration.



 
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Tim Duffin

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Re: Can you find better.
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2007, 12:19:49 am »

hardly any companies can make a speaker cheaper than eminence.  I think that is the reason for the low price.  Although I suspect that a jbl 2258 might be better than those 4 drivers.  

T

Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Can you find better.
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2007, 09:28:35 pm »

      Well this is what Harris Tech shows.

JBL Red
Lab 12 Orange

index.php/fa/7227/0/

    I did the prediction at 800 Watts as that is the JBL's RMS Rating.  The Labs would be a total of 1600.

   The JBL is obviously the Lord of all above 50Hz.  But not bellow.

   The 4 Lab12's also require ~4x the volume.

   I have done realworld half space measures of the 4 Lab12's in a vented Box VS.  A single JBL 2245, A pair of TAD 1603's and a Pair Of JBL 2225's.  The Labs were the kings of the deep in all cases.

   Eminence formerly Magnum 12's (Definimax) are much more expensive than the Lab 12's.  I'm not sure if you intended to imply that they make cheap speakers or they can make speakers cheaper than their competitors?  

Antone-

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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Can you find better.
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2007, 09:54:17 pm »

Just for fun here is the same graph with the Seismic Driver (I don't have TS params for the CGN) In two cabs.

    Yellow is Harris tech Recommended, Green is ~same vb as 4 lab12s

    Now about the same extension of the Lab 12's but 1 driver in 1 giant box.

index.php/fa/7228/0/

Very close, Xmax gets a little High I'm not sure what type of mechanical noise or THD starts happening with the Increased excursion, and those seismic certainly have a large reserve of that well beyond thermal limits.

    If the seismic cost is close to the same its a reasonable option but the 4 Labs still have 2 X RMS Power handling, and can be put into two or 4 smaller boxes making transport easier.

Antone-  
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leon douven

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Re: Can you find better.
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2007, 12:34:11 pm »

Hi Antone,

what about the acoupower 18 ?
ok ok these are expensive... but I'mm getting curious
how these would look in a graph

regards

leon
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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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acoupower cabs modeled.
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2007, 07:51:16 pm »

Well I don't have Le so don't expect the HF response to be so great.

Here are the graphs, I set max power at LAB 12's power limits 1600Watts RMS.  I'm actually surprised with the results.  Granted the Acoupower probably behaves a little better at high excursions.

    The accoupower has a vb of ~ 13cu' the port displacement makes it more like 17.6cu'.

    The Lab 12 has a vb of ~12cu' port displacement puts it up to 13cu'.

index.php/fa/7234/0/

Red=Acupower Orange=Lab12

I'm actually surprised with the predicted response.  And who makes an amp that delivers 3600watts?

I know the box and porting gets crazy because of the huge xmax of the driver.

    Again More expensive and less configurable for ~ the same performance in a larger package.

Antone-

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