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Author Topic: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System  (Read 23795 times)

Art Welter

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Re: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2011, 03:27:00 pm »

art,
i think you were a little unclear earlier or maybe you were misread. the M4 does not have piston capability in the range stated above. that is, 250hz and below: above that however, properly powered and processed the M4 will annihilate anything until it gets above 2k
What "range stated above" are you writing about?
I did not misread, Community's current M4 spec sheet states 250 Hz and 1800 Hz as “optimum crossover frequencies” .

They also state 144 dB peak output, which is achievable by a variety of cone speaker based horns.

The M4 has formidable output, but there are many options that it will not annihilate, the output of a DSL SH-25, for instance, is rated 143 dB peak output, with a frequency range of 90-18K.

The EV MH6040AC as mentioned by Sheldon Harris, various Meyers and Martin speakers all have similar output capability.

Again, I owned and used 10 M4s, and had a chance to use, test, and compare them to a variety of other systems.  I ended up using them from around 300 Hz to 2.5K . They work well in that range, as do other devices, but I don't consider that range adequate for a stand alone modern speech system .

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Chris Davis

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Re: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2011, 10:00:53 pm »

Hola Ben.........so what do you think after all this people trying to help? ???
hello Chris, I didnt understand what do you exactly mean when you say :
I can't believe I am reading this.
regards
Toro

Hi Toro, I didn't know which direction Art was going. 

Chris
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Sheldon Harris

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Re: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2011, 01:04:01 pm »

What "range stated above" are you writing about?
I did not misread, Community's current M4 spec sheet states 250 Hz and 1800 Hz as “optimum crossover frequencies” .
art, you did not misread, i misread, and i would go on a limb and sasy that others misread as well.
"it is obvious why two horn loaded twelves produced more output at 250 Hz and below than the M4."

i think this statement was the one. i don't think anyone in this section would disagree with the statement: but it somehow throwed everything off (for me i cant say for anyone else for sure)since we were speaking about the m4 at the optimum pass-band 300-2k which no 12" driver on the planet could not possible rival at that frequency range. that is 300-2k. i think you later corrected that statement by stating the pass-band you were referring to 300-2.5k i think.
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Art Welter

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Re: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2011, 12:19:53 pm »

art, you did not misread, i misread, and i would go on a limb and sasy that others misread as well.
"it is obvious why two horn loaded twelves produced more output at 250 Hz and below than the M4."

i think this statement was the one. i don't think anyone in this section would disagree with the statement: but it somehow throwed everything off (for me i cant say for anyone else for sure)since we were speaking about the m4 at the optimum pass-band 300-2k which no 12" driver on the planet could not possible rival at that frequency range. that is 300-2k. i think you later corrected that statement by stating the pass-band you were referring to 300-2.5k i think.
The Community M4 was a nice achievement in 1981, it could go an octave lower, and a bit louder than the midrange "king" at the time, the JBL 2482, though it traded an upper octave for a lower octave.
This allowed a better transition to 15 inch LF and use of 1" exit HF drivers above, offsetting the higher cost of the M4 over more 2" exit midrange drivers.
At that time, horn loaded LF cabinets had fallen out of favor, so most arena systems were transitioning at 500 Hz from a 2" exit driver to a front loaded 15", the extra lower octave (250-500 Hz) of pattern control the M4 offered was a big deal for articulation in reverberant rooms.

Time marches on, thirty years later there are now many horn loaded 10 and 12 inch drivers that can put out far more output at the low end of the M4's range, and with properly designed phase plugs, are not far behind in the upper range. 

For 300-3K, the M4 is still a good driver.

For modern speech reinforcement, 250 to 1800 Hz ( the range Community says is best for the M4) simply is not a wide enough bandwidth, and requires lows below, and highs above.

The point I have been trying to get across is for the most acoustic watt output per dollar from around 100-10K,  a two way speech system using 3 or 4 inch diaphragm HF drivers with 10 or 12 inch horn loaded LF drivers is more cost effective, and more readily available world-wide than a three way system based on M4 midrange drivers.

The OP's initial request brought back memories of a system I designed for a group called the Jets for an appearance in Tonga in the mid 1980s.
No PA of any scale above a lounge act was available there, to fly or ship any in for a show would have cost a fortune. The show was uncompensated, so doing a decent PA as cheap as possible was required.

The crew brought along eight EV15B speakers, and eight JBL 2470 one inch phenolic HF drivers on 60x30 horns. Four large straight horns with simple phase plugs were constructed on site for the LF drivers, allowing a crossover point around 1200 Hz, and decent LF to 50 Hz or so.
The Jets JBL "Ice Cube" amps were used, and  as I recall.
The show took place in a large outdoor sports stadium, it was the first time any audience members that had not been off the island had ever heard loud, full range sound in an arena environment.
The King of Tonga imposed such an "exit tax" on the equipment that it all was left behind after the show. I wonder if it is still in use..

The used speaker components for the Tongan arena system cost the Jets around $1600. I don't recall what the eight or so sheets of plywood cost, or the cost of three amplifiers, an active crossover and some wire, but a full range sound system capable of covering tens of thousands of people can be built for relatively little money anywhere on the planet, using simple plans that local carpenters can follow.

Art Welter
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chuck clark

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Re: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2011, 02:18:39 pm »

Yah, Art buddy, you rule, but I have 1 question. Why the concern about the output at 250 hz? That's not exactly the freq. you NEED tons of output at for vocal clarity. Heck, Peavey had a compression horn 12" box that knocked nuts but the Community stuff really shines in the VOCAL region. You are aware that going an octave lower requires 4 times the excursion to maintain the same output  for a given piston area, right?
When your crossing over an octave above their lower limit and ALL that excursion is available for CLARITY between 1k and 3k not to mention- no hase error or Xover in the MIDDLE of vocal region you get loud clear vocals, admittedly not alot of mud at 250 hz.
MY system:
2 plx 3402's for 4 Community R2-52's in plywood trapezoidal boxes for easy stack/arrayiing
2 plx 3402's for 4 Wharfedale 218 subs.
System is biamped (passive 3 way tops) w/ a basic DBX driverack
This system delivers peaks in excess of 140 db and MORE IMPORTANTLY it delivers clear vocals at a Walmart that is 1/2 a mile away from the speakers!!! I might add it sets up in under an hour  with only 1 speaker cord to each box AND its WEATHERPROOF. (I have actually covered the bass bins w/ plastic and run it in a rainstorm!)
My point? You seem to have somehow managed to be dissapointed that M4's are not great LOW mid drivers when infact what they ARE is amazing HI mid drivers. How did that happen!?
Happy sailing
Chuck
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Art Welter

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Re: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2011, 01:24:03 pm »

Yah, Art buddy, you rule, but I have 1 question. Why the concern about the output at 250 hz? That's not exactly the freq. you NEED tons of output at for vocal clarity. Heck, Peavey had a compression horn 12" box that knocked nuts but the Community stuff really shines in the VOCAL region. You are aware that going an octave lower requires 4 times the excursion to maintain the same output  for a given piston area, right?
When your crossing over an octave above their lower limit and ALL that excursion is available for CLARITY between 1k and 3k not to mention- no hase error or Xover in the MIDDLE of vocal region you get loud clear vocals, admittedly not alot of mud at 250 hz.

My point? You seem to have somehow managed to be dissapointed that M4's are not great LOW mid drivers when infact what they ARE is amazing HI mid drivers. How did that happen!?
Happy sailing
Chuck
I am not disappointed in the M4, it is an excellent  driver for use in the range Community says it works best, 250-1800 Hz. That said, having heard many other alternatives in that range,  the M4, although impressive, did not "amaze" me, and I have no regrets having sold them off.

As far as 250 Hz or below adding to vocal clarity, it does not, but  natural sounding speech does require a fairly wide range. Looking (and listening) to AM radio vocal broadcast spectrum, a range of 80 Hz to 5 KHZ is common for male voices.
A 250 Hz 24 dB per octave cutoff with an M4 is required for high powered use, but will not sound very “authoritative” if that is the lower PA vocal cutoff.

Definitions of "high mid" , "low mid" and "middle vocal region" are rather vague.
If we settle on 50 to 12.5K as the low and high range of a PA system, those 8 octaves can be evenly divided up 4 ways (a good choice when horn loading) into lows up to 200, low mid 200-800, high mid 800-3.15K, highs 3.15 to 12.5K.

The M4 won't make 200, and it's upper range is wasted in a evenly divided 4 way system.

Split the above into a three way system with with crossover points around  315 - 3.15 K (pushing the upper limit of where the M4 still sounds good a bit) and the M4 shines. This range was it’s intended use, (and not covered as well by any commercial drivers in 1981) and it covers it well.

For a decent speech system covering 5 octaves, 160 Hz to 5K, (160 Hz is still an octave light, but as you mentioned going an octave lower requires a lot more excursion) and we find the M4 does not fit so well into a two way solution, as it will not do high output at 160 Hz, and does not sound very good (nor is it very efficient) up around 5K.

My point is simply that a system using 10” or 12" driver LF horns and  3" or 4" diaphragm HF horns will cover the 160-5K range nicely, with more output on either end than using a two way M4 system for less money per delivered acoustic watt.


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chuck clark

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Re: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2011, 05:51:46 pm »

Well there's your problem. Trying to make it fit into a 2 way solution. I'm just saying when you cross them over an octave ABOVE 250 you get all that excursion available to melt your face from 500hz to 2khz. with a purity  that you need to stand a 1/4 mile away from to fully appreciate because they will HURT you up close.
The savings come in when you realize you don't need 10 of them.  Thus allowing you to go 3 or even 4 way for full range music. I'm here to tell you band width limiting is the secret to M4's buddy, they will light up and tear you a new one! My problem is now I have to keep turning them down because the rest of my system won't keep up! Happy sailing!
Chuck 
 
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Help me Find a Long Throw Speaker System
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2011, 05:51:46 pm »


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