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Author Topic: OK this is going to get me in trouble  (Read 46908 times)

John Chiara

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #210 on: December 17, 2006, 10:49:03 am »

Henry Denman wrote on Fri, 15 December 2006 18:11

What I do not understand is why anyone besides the people who attend Westover find this to be a problem.  The money they contribute is what bought this console.  Am I missing something here?  Has anyone who has expressed opposition to this console in this topic contributed to this church?  Is that why so many people seem so passionate about this?  



Edit: forgot question mark


Along these lines..when new .."expensive" technologies come along..whether it be pocket calculators, VHS recorders or digital mixing consoles..the first buyers of these gadgets are what makes the eventual availability of the technologies to the public possible when prices go down as production increases. I agree that it is the business of the purchasers. I would not tell my neighbor not to buy a Ferrari because I thought it was extravagant.
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Chris Rowtcliff

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OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #211 on: December 17, 2006, 10:53:11 am »

Randy,
If you worked for a church would you want your payment details passed on to anyone? What about government tax-funded employees, should their details be public as well? Maybe salary information should be disclosed to the church on a need to know basis, the church could know but I don't need to know, so I don't and don't expect too.

If the church can afford a Midas and it is the best console for the job (which I think through discussion the case has been made and I personally think it is) then why not? If Yamaha made a product equivalent to the XL8 and it cost half the price im sure the church would have considered it.
If, for example, the church purchased a Digico which only just fit the requirements for now, what would happen in 3 or 4 years when the requirements changed as congregation size increased? A new desk would probably have to be bought. = more money. Its been explained that the Midas was a 10+ year investment, good idea - its a shame more churches don't work like this!

It was mentioned earlier in the thread (I think!) that the church donates 20% to charity and mission. Maybe this church donates the same proportion of its income to charity and aid work as yours, mine and every other church in the world, the difference is the money in their proportions is bigger.

It all, I think, boils down to the question of what a church actually needs, and how you would define need!
Do we need a reverb unit? Well, probably not in the grand scheme of things - it doesn't add anything to the message. Do we have one? Yes.

I've done a few corporate jobs here and there and every time the company in question has had lighting, sound, visuals etc. The company doesn't need lighting, one profile on the podium would have done, but every time there have been some nice colour washes, effects etc.
In the same way the PA could have consisted of Behringer, Peavey, Phonic or any other lower cost brand, but d&b, Allen & Heath and Yamaha were used. $10,000's are being spend on communicating these messages, because its the most effective way of reaching a particular target audience/congregation. Im sure the bosses of these companies would rather have kept the money instead of spending it on AV, LX etc but people expect it now. Why should church be any different? We're still trying to reach people and communicate the message of the gospel, why should churches turn down the most effective way of doing this if they can afford it?

And here endeth my ramblings  Smile !
Chris
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Al Limberg

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #212 on: December 17, 2006, 12:07:36 pm »

I agree John-none of my business if my neighbor buys a Ferrari.  Perhaps I would be more concerned though if the local Red Cross bought their director a Ferrari using funds that were collected under the pretense of doing charitable works.

?;o)
Al
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Andy Peters

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #213 on: December 17, 2006, 03:22:31 pm »

Al Limberg wrote on Sun, 17 December 2006 10:07

I agree John-none of my business if my neighbor buys a Ferrari.  Perhaps I would be more concerned though if the local Red Cross bought their director a Ferrari using funds that were collected under the pretense of doing charitable works.


I don't think this pretense even exists regarding Landover ... from the quote Mike Sveda pulled from their website:

Quote:

Our singular focus at Westover is that of becoming mature followers of Jesus Christ. Our desire is for His life to be lived out through each of us; in our homes, in our jobs, and in our neighborhoods. We also highly value an environment of grace where people understand and experience true freedom in Christ.


Nothing at all about doing good works for the community etc etc.

And I remind everyone what that whacko L. Ron Hubbard is alleged to have said: wanna make a million bucks?  Start a religion.  (The tax exemptions reallllllly help, too.)

-a
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john abney

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #214 on: December 17, 2006, 06:59:59 pm »

In much the same way as, 'Work expands to fill the time allotted to it,' so the worship service can expand to utilize all the technology allotted to it. But if a church is going to pipe the same sound and video to satellite rooms as it does to the main auditorium, why stop there? Why not broadcast it over local cable, and let the viewer/listener furnish their own HVAC? Or (if cable access is not available) why not record it on DVD? Or why not use the money it would cost to build and operate a satellite facility to, instead, fund a new church? It would mean giving up some control, but is that a bad thing? At least the entire congregation could be together in one room.

The old, low-tech way of doing things could have its artistic benefits. I can remember times when a performer or congregational song leader would request that the PA be turned off for a song or maybe just the last chorus of a song. And if the instrument was tuned, if the congregation was trained in singing, if the architects had done their job, and - most importantly - it was a good song, the experience could be glorious.

Could such a thing be done effectively in a mega-church? I'd say it would be a lot more difficult.

Of course, the mega-church is likely to have one thing the low-tech church did not: double kick drums. You'll have to decide for yourself whether that's progress or not :-)

best,

john
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Iain_Macdonald

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #215 on: December 18, 2006, 09:11:02 am »

An old saying comes to mind.

Not only, do you have to do the right thing. You also have to be seen to do the right thing.

Iain.
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Henry Denman

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #216 on: December 18, 2006, 09:47:33 am »

John Chiara wrote on Sun, 17 December 2006 08:49

Henry Denman wrote on Fri, 15 December 2006 18:11

What I do not understand is why anyone besides the people who attend Westover find this to be a problem.  The money they contribute is what bought this console.  Am I missing something here?  Has anyone who has expressed opposition to this console in this topic contributed to this church?  Is that why so many people seem so passionate about this?  



Edit: forgot question mark


Along these lines..when new .."expensive" technologies come along..whether it be pocket calculators, VHS recorders or digital mixing consoles..the first buyers of these gadgets are what makes the eventual availability of the technologies to the public possible when prices go down as production increases. I agree that it is the business of the purchasers. I would not tell my neighbor not to buy a Ferrari because I thought it was extravagant.


John,  My point had nothing to do with how new "expensive" technologies get to the general public.  My point had everything to do with peoples perception of a problem.  This church and it's "members" bought this board.  While I have no facts to back up the claim, I am willing to go out on a limb and say no one who has expressed opposition in this thread actually attends Westover.  Which to me begs the question.  What is the problem?  
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Marc Schwartz

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #217 on: December 18, 2006, 09:54:09 am »

I think it is outrageous to buy a Midas XL8 for $200K. Having said that, I wouldn't turn it down if someone gave me one for free. I don't know the specifics of the situation at the church in question, but it is entirely possibly that it may have been given to the church as a gift. In that case, a donor of such a gift has every right to do so. In my experience, one cannot place a monetary value on the spiritual. It may well be that a wealthy individual was moved to and made this purchase for their ministry, as a direct result of a spiritual motivation to give. Judge not, lest you yourself be judged...

-Marc
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Alex Schultz

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #218 on: December 18, 2006, 11:12:21 am »

MOUNTAINS out of molehills...

The church bought a cutting edge, performance system that the rest of the world wants and can't afford.

SO WHAT?

It's their money and they are free to spend it as they see fit. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. That's the beauty of capitalism.

It's really NO ONE'S call, other than the church's, whether or not the purchase was morally, financially or politically correct.

I spend my money the way I want, why shouldn't they? (It's a rhetorical question - not a call for further debate)


For BuddhaAllahJesus' and the kittens' sake, let it go.
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Miguel Castro Rios

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #219 on: December 18, 2006, 12:03:03 pm »

The bible, many many years ago. Shocked

Quote:

Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #219 on: December 18, 2006, 12:03:03 pm »


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