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Author Topic: OK this is going to get me in trouble  (Read 46940 times)

Steve Payne

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2006, 03:59:25 pm »

Randy -
 The topics of religion and politics have historically been way off limits on this forum, and for good reason.  Having pointed that out, let me add, "Amen, Brother!"
Mad  Shocked  Evil or Very Mad
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steve

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Jake Scudder

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2006, 03:59:46 pm »

I'll try to keep religion out of this so not to be punished.

I can see where you are coming from but at the same time I used to be equally disgusted by the seemingly prevalent feeling that "it's a ministry so there is no need to spend money on technology".  I will agree that the XL8 may be overkill, but I don't know the circumstances under which it was acquired nor the financial situation of the church.  Perhaps it was given at a large discount for a tax write-off.  Maybe a wealthy congregation member wants to provide a world class system for the purpose of training budding engineers in a "positive" environment.  The fact is that churches are basically businesses.  If they feel that is the best investment for them to accomplish their vision, who am I to say they are wrong.

Also, I don't see what the size of the venue has to do with console choice.  The programming and application the console needs to be able to handle may be very complicated.  I routinely use a PM1D in a 800 seat house.  If they are also using it for broadcast purposes the actual potential audience could be much higher.
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Mike {AB} Butler

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2006, 03:59:54 pm »

OK, you said it was ridiculous. No disrespect to you Randy, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
But I could argue back.. why don't we as an industry drop down to mid level gear.. and send the rest of our revenue to aid and caritable causes ourselves? Because our customers expect us to have top notch gear.. or they won't come and play with us, in some cases.
If you really want to complain, let's discuss the salaries of many of these large churches pay their staff. The "expensive system" is a drop in the bucket.. compared to some of the salaries I've casually seen..
Respectfully,
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Randy Frierson

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2006, 04:03:40 pm »

I think you hit the nail on the head...so now much larger chuch's are going to have to get XL8's and one-up by putting in better and better to outdo the other..great buisness for telex but am i just niave ..If i was mixing sir Paul or Kiss or madge or prince i wouldn't specify a XL8 because it just doesn't make financial sense and with the price of tickets and labor calls i'd try to leave some money so that the tour could sustain itself...I mean seriously how much better can it sound, what feature does it have that can't be duplicated by other consoles at a 1/3 of the price..I am a huge Midas Fan..but a H-3000 makes more sense to me than a XL-4 so if i use that analogy then a Digico or 1D or Venue would make more sense..still for what they are trying to accomplish i'm more than sure a PM5DRH could of got the job done...I don't actually mean the 5D i mean the analogy of a great console under $100,000.00 would have been sufficient and a really nice piece...if midas was to give me a XL8 i'd sell it and buy 3 or 4 H-3000's...you get my drift..R
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Doug Fowler

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2006, 04:27:49 pm »

10-4 good buddy, but this topic doesn't really have anything to do with religion.....

"Gross hypocrisy" might be a more apt description.

I do agree completely that much of this is "keeping up with the Joneses".  
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Ryan Lantzy

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2006, 04:35:06 pm »

Randy Frierson wrote on Fri, 08 December 2006 16:03

I mean seriously how much better can it sound, what feature does it have that can't be duplicated by other consoles at a 1/3 of the price..I am a huge Midas Fan..but a H-3000 makes more sense to me than a XL-4 so if i use that analogy then a Digico or 1D or Venue would make more sense..still for what they are trying to accomplish i'm more than sure a PM5DRH could of got the job done...I don't actually mean the 5D i mean the analogy of a great console under $100,000.00 would have been sufficient and a really nice piece...if midas was to give me a XL8 i'd sell it and buy 3 or 4 H-3000's...you get my drift..R


Randy,

I think your question is an excellent one.  However, the question begs for a different forum.

Basically to answer something like this, you must look in detail at how our society works: religion, technology, politics, the arts, entertainment, etc.

It's really a lifestyle issue.  I'm sure that any one of 100 touring bands could almost always get by on less equipment or inferior equipment to what their rider specifies.  Anyone can make compromises.  It's just a question of whether you want to do so or not.

A musician or group of musicians has a lot to lose if they don't keep up a certain level of expectation.  While I believe this has more to do with the type of people you surround yourself with than the gear, we still see riders with XL4s for 600 seat venues, microphones made of gold, and a speaker system that cost more than a house in Beverly Hills.  Why?

It's perception really.  We are a very materialistic society.  Materialism is evident in everyday life yet we fail to see it let alone question it because we are just accustomed to it.

To me, it doesn't matter if you spend 100,000 on a console or 300,000.  You're in a price range that is somewhat exhorbant.  None-the-less, if you look at the operating budgets of these HoWs and music tours, I think it's a drop in the bucket to the good that is being done and the money that is being made.  Maybe that's just an excuse, but I don't lose sleep over it.  One man can only solve so many problems.

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Ryan Lantzy
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Curtis_Flatt

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2006, 04:39:49 pm »

Randy, I do hafta agree on this one, but I also know how some of the churches get their money for these things. They hit specific members or groups to donate money for specific items. They get more than they asked for so rather than reallocate the money they spend it....they dont want to go to the budget meetings the next year and claim a surplus...still stupid...but how it happens sometimes. I used to be asked to speak/teach for a couple of classes in a worship team seminar. Year 3 they brought in a bigshot LA video installer who couldnt stand the fact I was always trying to sell down the guys that wanted to know if the new,big, expensive XYZ . The next year I wasnt invited back, he brought in his audio guys...and increased his sales.
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Tom Young

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2006, 04:40:33 pm »

I suppose that some could counter with perhaps you could scale down the cost/quality of your systems and donate that money to the needy. Sure; you are not a church and do not receieve funds in the same manner. But waste is waste. If it is "waste".

I, too, am far more irritated (and economically effected) by the misuse of the concept of stewardship that takes its form in not spending money for professional design services and the appropriate sound system equipment plus infrastructure. Not to mention acoustic design.

Bottom line: why shouldn't the folks who operate these sound systems (with what some consider to be "over the top" equipment) and the congregations they serve not experience the (widely considered to be) superior sound of a Midas console ? And isn't one of the several attributes of Midas consoles also their reliability ?

I really do not know, but perhaps some church folk feel that their facilities, including the sound system (and the sound quality delivered) should be better than what is provided for in the secular world. You know: "for the Glory of God". If that is the case, then they could perhaps convincingly (to some) argue that they need to have Midas versus Yamaha.

This over-the-top stuff is not really widespread and, for me, is not a huge issue. Not to say it doesn't rub me the wrong way, but no more than the millions of dollars that have been misappropriated by the huge lack of government control/verification and plenty of folks who scammed them and the various relief organizations. And not to mention the overall complete failure of the federal government with Katrina and its aftermath that continues to this day.

Based on other replies here I may be in the minority. Oh well.
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Tom Young
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Andy Peters

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2006, 04:43:27 pm »

Ryan Lantzy wrote on Fri, 08 December 2006 14:35

To me, it doesn't matter if you spend 100,000 on a console or 300,000.  You're in a price range that is somewhat exhorbant.  None-the-less, if you look at the operating budgets of these HoWs and music tours, I think it's a drop in the bucket to the good that is being done and the money that is being made.  Maybe that's just an excuse, but I don't lose sleep over it.  One man can only solve so many problems.


Ryan,

You've completely missed Randy's point (one with which I heartily agree).  There are people in New Orleans who still can't return home because their homes are wrecked (and insurance companies aren't paying).  There is so much poverty and suffering and the like all around, yet you have faith-based organizations dropping ludicrous amounts of money on audio and video gear ... money that would be MUCH better spent helping the less fortunate instead of preaching to the choir.

Truly, I think it's obscene.

-a
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brook hovland

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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2006, 04:46:50 pm »

Bingo, these big venues and organizations have money and are often not interested in what is best for the application and pocketbook but in using what is perceived as the best.
Admit it guys, for most of us on this board to get out of the business it would take a twelve step program.
Tell me the churches are different!
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Re: OK this is going to get me in trouble
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2006, 04:46:50 pm »


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