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[Winston Gamble]

Time for a new thread as I intend to throw out subject drift.

Looks like a good time was had by all and I would like to have been able to attend, but two time zones is a bit much.
Something that struck me as I looked at the pictures is that it seemed to me the entire event was/is a liability nightmare waiting to happen. 550 kids in that space has got to be way over fire code. Although the space doesn't look to be particularly fire prone, all it takes is to have something/anything get out of hand and there would a bunch of people hurt in the stampede for those mostly single door exits. I have done concerts at our Church, and judging from the size of the stage our room is about the same size if not slightly bigger. I thought 275-300 was packed in our case, so 550 must have been pretty close to full on sardine mode.
Evan, have you taken on liability insurance? What about the promoter of these events. I'm no model of good behavior in that department, but if I was doing it at the level you are getting into I would definitely want a good policy covering my ass-ets.

Not looking to rain on any parades, Winston.

[Evan Kirkendall]

The room is meant to hold 500 people. We were 50 over cap. The event's promoter works for a major booking company(24-7 entertainment) and they've got our backs covered if anything goes wrong. There was still room to walk around in there, it just took some effort. Thats the biggest crowd we've ever had there, but we were ready.



Evan

[Tim McCulloch]

Evan, you are *probably* correct in that the promoter's insurance would be primary... that is, in the event of injury to the public, the facility, or the entertainers, 24-7's policy would be the first in line.

However, their insurance company could come after you, if they thought you (your company, or anyone representing your company, even without your knowledge) did anything that might have caused or contributed to the loss.  Those who experienced the loss (victims, surviving family members, etc.) could still sue you, too, but keep reading...

There is also some interesting legal turf here, too.. you are a minor and can't legally enter into contracts, nor be held liable in a civil court.  The result is that your parents/guardians could be held liable for your actions, errors, or omissions.

As I am not an attorney, I could be wrong.  I could be right, here in Kansas, but wrong in Maryland... You and your parents should seek proper legal counsel regarding contracts and liability.  This also goes for Tom, as he partners with you, but you aren't able to legally enter into a contract with him because of your age...  So you and Tom do a gig together, and someone gets hurt or their property damaged.  Because you are a minor, Tom could easily end up bearing the entire cost.

I'm with Winston.  I'm not parade raining... but this is something you need to learn about.  You'll need this knowledge anyway, when you turn 18 next year.

Good luck, have fun, be safe.

Tim Mc

[RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS]

I don't know how things are in other parts of the country but where I live minors can enter into a contract.  The key is that the contract may not be enforcable.  In otherwords, if all of the conditions of the contract are met and fully executed then all is good.  If however there is some breach of contract by the minor then the contract could be unenforcable and there may not be any recourse for the party who was not in breach of contact.

The best possible solution of course is to get legal counsel to make sure everything is on the up and up.  Also in addition to a nice liability policy it would probably be a good idea for the minor's parents to carry a decent unbrella policy too.  

In a situation as with the promoter saying that he has everything covered, I would want to see that in writing with you added as an additional insured.  Obviously we get venues, etc that require us to add them as additional insured, there is no reason for them to not also add us!!!

[Mark Meagher]

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 15:00

they've got our backs covered if anything goes wrong.

It's not the policyholder you have to worry about, rather the company that wrote the insured policy. I'll also not parade rain, but will be realistic. If you have a stack get knocked over onto somebody and cause injury, or heaven forbid death, your promoter buddy won't have a say in covering your back. His insurance company will want to know all the details. Unless his policy specifies additional insured and he has named you as such for this event, you could be responsible. It was your gear, you set it up, and you were operating it.

I know this has been discussed a blue-million times here but, a general liability policy is bare minimum. If you want your gear covered for anything, you'll need to add inland marine.

My .02

[Bennett Prescott]

According to my contract law professor, in NY at least a minor can basically walk away from a contract at any time. Or, in his words, "Don't fuck around with minors".

[Mike Butler (media)]

Bennett Prescott wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 01:55

According to my contract law professor, in NY at least a minor can basically walk away from a contract at any time. Or, in his words, "Don't fuck around with minors".

Yep, that's what they taught me (waaaaaaay) back in the day. We business majors were required to get two semesters of Business Law, which naturally spent a great deal of time covering contracts (the whole second semester, essentially, after an overview in the first). Why do you suppose that when you take a picture of a minor the talent release must be signed by parent or guardian?

[Craig Leerman]

Quote:

The room is meant to hold 500 people. We were 50 over cap.

Then you were breaking the law, and putting all the lives in that place at risk!.  No insurance policy will cover you if you are breaking any laws while working, and a problem comes up  (even a problem unrelated to any laws you were breaking at the time).  

There is a reason that your state Fire Marshal, or local Fire Inspector/Fire Company places those capacity placards in public gathering places.  Its to tell you WHAT THE MAXIMUM CAPACITY FOR THE ROOM IS!  Its not a guide, but an ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM.  

Its all about safety of the occupants, and enough exits for them to leave, not if there is still room to squeeze in more people.  Two rooms the same size could have different maximum capacities, because one room has more obstructions, or less exits, or is not on the ground level.

And BTW, that capacity includes the BAND, TECH CREW, SECURITY, and PROMOTERS, so a room that holds 500 people might only have 475 paying guests after figuring in the staff.

The stated capacity of a room or building should NEVER BE EXCEEDED under ANY circumstances.  You risk a high fine, but worse, put EVERYONE'S LIVES AT RISK!

If you expect bigger crowds, you need to move to a larger venue!

There is no getting around safety.

[Evan Kirkendall]

Craig Leerman wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 02:28

Quote: The room is meant to hold 500 people. We were 50 over cap. Then you were breaking the law, and putting all the lives in that place at risk!. No insurance policy will cover you if you are breaking any laws while working, and a problem comes up (even a problem unrelated to any laws you were breaking at the time). There is a reason that your state Fire Marshal, or local Fire Inspector/Fire Company places those capacity placards in public gathering places. Its to tell you WHAT THE MAXIMUM CAPACITY FOR THE ROOM IS! Its not a guide, but an ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM. Its all about safety of the occupants, and enough exits for them to leave, not if there is still room to squeeze in more people. Two rooms the same size could have different maximum capacities, because one room has more obstructions, or less exits, or is not on the ground level. And BTW, that capacity includes the BAND, TECH CREW, SECURITY, and PROMOTERS, so a room that holds 500 people might only have 475 paying guests after figuring in the staff. The stated capacity of a room or building should NEVER BE EXCEEDED under ANY circumstances. You risk a high fine, but worse, put EVERYONE'S LIVES AT RISK! If you expect bigger crowds, you need to move to a larger venue! There is no getting around safety.

I dont control how many the let in. Im just the soundguy. The promoter chose to let that many in. Yell at him for breaking the law, not me.

Also, this room is rated:
450: banquet
500: meeting

So, that includes chairs, tables and whatnot. They did those ratings waay before concerts started in the room. I think they need to include a standing room only number as well.


Evan

[Mac Kerr]

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 10:34

I dont control how many the let in. Im just the soundguy. The promoter chose to let that many in. Yell at him for breaking the law, not me. Also, this room is rated: 450: banquet 500: meeting So, that includes chairs, tables and whatnot. They did those ratings waay before concerts started in the room. I think they need to include a standing room only number as well.

The number of people is based on the ease of egress as well as square footage. The number is lower for banquet tables because it is harder t get out. the maximum number is based largely on the number and size of the fire exits. When we do shows in large exhibit halls that have capacities of say 8-10 thousand, the fact that our set and backstage hides half the exit doors means the capacity is cut in half. Then it is lowered further because we put in a stage and have eliminated 1/3 of the room.

The sign on the wall is the maximum. Large events always have to have their plans approved by a Fire Marshal, who sets the new maximum based on the room layout. As Craig said, exceeding the posted maximum occupancy took insurance off the table, and made everyone involved in the production liable. Think about your parents selling their house because you got sued and nobody was covered by insurance.

Mac