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Author Topic: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor  (Read 40885 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2006, 02:11:18 pm »

Doran Oster wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 10:41


Hi Bennett and Evan,

Hard limiters typically clip high signal levels. Clipping means DC.  Clipping sounds terrible and DC leads to blown speakers.  This is why the Navigator does not offer a limiter.   The better solution is to put two independent compressors in series.

The Navigator?s first compressor is in each channel input section.  Set this one for controlling the channel?s dynamic range.  A relatively slow attack time and perhaps a faster release time might sound best here.  

The second compressor is in the output section.  It protects the speakers from overload.  Set the ratio as high as possible for a flat threshold.  Set the output threshold above the input threshold so that it does not kick in except in extreme cases, but of course, set it below the levels that could damage the speakers.  Set a very short attack time so that compression starts almost instantaneously and set a longer release time for caution.  This configuration gives a clean and transparent program with controlled dynamic range under normal conditions.  It protects your speakers from extreme levels quickly without clipping.

Our next software release adds metering and other improvements, and it will soon be available free at www.Sabine.com.

Doran Oster
President
www.Sabine.com




Hi and welcome to the LAB.

Limiters are routinely used to prevent clipping. There may be a transient DC component (is that an oxymoron?) due to asymmetrical clipping of peaks before the limiter's attack time can respond in low headroom applications but for a DC bias to persist at the loudspeaker the full audio path must be DC coupled "and" the asymmetrical clipping must be prolonged (for example from an steady state asymmetrical waveform that also exceeds the full gain reduction capability of the limiter).


JR
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Iain_Macdonald

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2006, 03:14:03 pm »

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:11

Doran Oster wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 10:41


Hi Bennett and Evan,

Hard limiters typically clip high signal levels. Clipping means DC.  Clipping sounds terrible and DC leads to blown speakers.  This is why the Navigator does not offer a limiter.   The better solution is to put two independent compressors in series.

The Navigator?s first compressor is in each channel input section.  Set this one for controlling the channel?s dynamic range.  A relatively slow attack time and perhaps a faster release time might sound best here.  

The second compressor is in the output section.  It protects the speakers from overload.  Set the ratio as high as possible for a flat threshold.  Set the output threshold above the input threshold so that it does not kick in except in extreme cases, but of course, set it below the levels that could damage the speakers.  Set a very short attack time so that compression starts almost instantaneously and set a longer release time for caution.  This configuration gives a clean and transparent program with controlled dynamic range under normal conditions.  It protects your speakers from extreme levels quickly without clipping.

Our next software release adds metering and other improvements, and it will soon be available free at www.Sabine.com.

Doran Oster
President
www.Sabine.com




Hi and welcome to the LAB.

Limiters are routinely used to prevent clipping. There may be a transient DC component (is that an oxymoron?) due to asymmetrical clipping of peaks before the limiter's attack time can respond in low headroom applications but for a DC bias to persist at the loudspeaker the full audio path must be DC coupled "and" the asymmetrical clipping must be prolonged (for example from an steady state asymmetrical waveform that also exceeds the full gain reduction capability of the limiter).


JR



What Mr Roberts said. Plus. Don't forget the 'look ahead' limiter. Which allows a nominal zero attack time, and no significant clipping or distortion. It just lowers the level. Most appropriate for digital circuits, where you never really want to exceed 0dbFS, even for 1 sample.

Iain.
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Evan Kirkendall

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2006, 06:48:47 pm »

Navigator update #3:

Used it live with the TRX's triamped last weekend. I must say, this unit is very easy to use. Doing things on the fly live was a breeze. The menus are very easy to flip through and find what you need. If you're an analog guy that was afraid to go over to digital this unit is for you. It changed my mind on digital stuff and so far the unit's been very reliable.

There are only a few things I dont like about it. First off(a big one for me) is the lack of limiter/compressor lights. You have no idea(besides hearing it) when you are into the compressors. I'd really like to see an LED on the front of the nav. that tells you when you're into compression. The only way I can figure out if Im hitting the comps is to bypass them and see how far the level jumps up on my amps. Lucky for me, with the triamped mains Im not even into the comps. Another thing is how long it takes to boot. It didnt bother me at first, and still doesnt bother me that much, but it takes a long time to get going. I blew the breaker at my gig on saturday and when I reset it the amps were ready to go, but we had to wait for the nav to boot. It takes close to a minute.

Other then those 2 things I really like it. It's a pretty solid unit that Im willing to trust. It gets the job done with little effort. I recommend it to those of you with analog x-overs.


Navigator in action:
index.php/fa/7122/0/



Evan
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Joe Breher

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NAV3600 & long RS-232 runs (was Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor)
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2007, 04:35:24 pm »

All -

Just a note to add to the collective wisdom. I hadn't seen this point addressed.

I recently acquired a Sabine NAV3600 to replace my rusty old analog xo (brand name will not be mentioned, in order to avoid embarrassment). After having become somewhat accustomed to its operation, I wanted to run it remotely - with the NAV in my amp racks, and a laptop at FOH. I was wondering if the RS-232 was robust enough to handle this. I am now delighted to report that operation was flawless for me.

My particular configuraiton: I bought a generic 25' 9-pin RS-232 cable. Cut it roughly 1/3 - 2/3 in length. Attached an XLR to each raw end:
D-Sub - XLR
2 - 2
3 - 3
5 - 1
Was rough working with the generic serial cable - looks to be about 30 AWG, if not smaller.

Ran one of the resultant adapter cables from laptop to snake, and another from snake to NAV.

Operation was flawless.

My snake is 143' long. May be worth noting that it is AES/EBU cable (110 ohm). I must admit that it's awfully nice to have 94x22 channels in under a half-inch outside diameter cable!
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Joe Breher
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Joe Breher

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2007, 04:48:19 pm »

Evan -

Quote:

 I blew the breaker at my gig on saturday and when I reset it the amps were ready to go, but we had to wait for the nav to boot.


As you are considering digital mixing (referring to your recent inquiries), I have one word (or is it three?): UPS.

I have been running a digital board for about 7 years now. Blew a breaker at one of the first shows with it. Under musicus interruptus, the time to reboot does seem like an eternity. Went out the next day and got two UPSs (my mixer is a split system, with a processor at stage end of snake, and control surface at FOH - 1 UPS for each).

Since then, it has never - I repeat never - died on me in the middle of a show. And my of choice digital mixer would probably be considered 'ghetto' by most LAB denizens with digital experience (though I obviously wouldn't agree).

Put that NAV (and your digital board) on a UPS, and you'll no longer need to sweat about blowing a breaker. Punters pulling cords may be a different story...

(edit: grammar)
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Joe Breher
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Evan Kirkendall

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2007, 04:52:12 pm »

Yeah, Ive got one at home. Ill probably start bringing it to gigs.


BTW- I still am loving the Navigator. Great little unit for the money. Plenty of DSP powa!



Evan
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Bennett Prescott

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2007, 07:28:48 pm »

Joe Breher wrote on Tue, 13 February 2007 16:48

...my of choice digital mixer would probably be considered 'ghetto' by most LAB denizens with digital experience (though I obviously wouldn't agree).

Oooh! A guessing game... is it made by... Roland?
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Joe Breher

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2007, 11:53:07 pm »

Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 13 February 2007 17:28


Oooh! A guessing game... is it made by... Roland?

Umm, yeah. I actually own two of the VM-7200 systems, fully populated. I can combine 'em into a single large system.

Yup, it's quirky, but quite capable, and my workflows are already built around it. Trying to change to another system with a 20-pound 150' (OK, 143', but I have two more 15' extensions, so thats... umm... carry the one... 173') snake would cost me many more kilobux.

Short description: http://q-music.com/html/roland_vm.html
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Joe Breher
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Christopher Myers

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2007, 01:05:29 pm »

I just wanted to point out, in the previous generation of processors, I recall seeing multiple ads in different places that show all of the NAV processors with screens with 4 lines of text, however when I got my NAV3600 it only had two.  Something fishy going on there.  In fact I'm pretty sure one of those banners was on this site!  I realize this is uncheckable now being Sabine just revised the look of the new generation of NAV line, but did anyone else catch this?  
Just for the record I got mine in Sept. of 2006 and came with the latest firmware already installed.  
With that said, I still think it's a great unit and a breeze to operate with the computer software.  I like how each output has hi/lo/band pass instead of a general 'crossover' setting between channels.
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Chris Myers
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Joe Breher

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Re: Sabine Navigator NAV4800 System Processor
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2007, 07:14:12 pm »

Yaeh - before I bought, I called Sabine (as well as Xilica) to get the scoop on the units. I pointedly asked whether the *only* difference between the 3600 and 4800 was channel count. Sabine replied that this was indeed the case. However, when my 3600 arrived, it had the smaller display.

While I was somewhat disappointed, I am generally either driving it from a laptop, and/or only concerned with input (room) eq. Acordingly, it isn't really very limiting - just a bit inconvenient.
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Joe Breher
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