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Author Topic: Camco Vortex Amplifiers  (Read 73063 times)

Lester Moran

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2006, 04:17:56 pm »

Pascal Pincosy wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 06:43

That being said, I'm not hearing Jens trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating his experiences with the Vortex line, which doesn't seem to be in line with most of the other users of this amp, including myself. And I'm seeing a bunch of people jumping down his throat for doing so, which I think is a little unfair. Jens is obviously a very opinionated person, which I don't think is a bad thing and I appreciate his views being posted here. But interested parties should note that he's pretty much the only one with this opinion posting here.


I've noticed that folks expressing views contrary to the majority have historically been treated with unnecessary animus at PSW.  This discourages fresh opinions from folks that may be more timid than Jens is.   That's a loss to everyone.

FWIW

Les
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2006, 11:56:21 pm »

Jens Droessler wrote on Sun, 10 December 2006 21:08

@ Bob Leonard:
Quote:

100A from a 115V line? Where's the event, the Mercedes factory.

We do events there, yes.

Well good for you. That still doesn't explain 100 amps from a 115v line.

Quote:

How about this. I would really like to hear what Bennett and the boy's have to say about these amplifiers. I for one respect their opinions. The Road Test is for this amp, so I would like to read about the pro's and con's for this amp.


Firstly, I'm not stopping them on posting their experience, do I?
Secondly, YOU obviously DON'T want to hear about the cons...

What I don't want is you pissing on my leg and then trying to tell me it's raining. What I do want is an educated opinion. That would be theirs, not yours.

Quote:

I don't care about what's going on with friends in Germany, mythical condensation, mis informed and inaccurate engineering concepts, perceived notions or comparisons to other manufactures or about arc welders turned audio amp (Audio Welders?.


And I don't care what crap you buy because someone said it is good (not specifically the Camco amp) while not knowing what 'standard' was applied. It's your problem if you buy without an accurate comparison. And that is all I say, I tell people WILLING TO BUY an amp in this class to take enough time to directly COMPARE before they set their mind. I didn't tell anyone of the road testers to make a comparison here.
Furthermore, if you think an amp is bad or worse than another because it CAN draw AND output this kind of current, it is you who has misinformed and inaccurate engineering concepts!

Well good for you. That still doesn't explain 100 amps from a 115v line.


By the way, those reviews are mostly about 'perceived notions'.

I told the true story about the defective Camcos because people DON'T put the ITechs for example on their list just because some people here say that they get broken (so they did not even dare to get a sample). It was a direct reply to RYAN.

And if you like to refer to scientific facts as 'mythical', you're welcome, you're entitled to it. I won't make the effort to change your mind.

Quote:

If you need to make comparisons then start another thread. If you need to bash, piss and moan, start another thread. If your interested in what the REVIEWERS have to say, stay tuned.

I don't want to have a comparison HERE, and I don't bash here either. Why is it 'bashing' if I tell people about drawbacks of a product? And why the heck should I MOAN if other people buy products I wouldn't buy? That's their problem. If they do, so be it. But I think I have the right to tell people what the problems are. And if the 'road testers' know those problems (by reading about them here) they possibly can validate them. Wouldn't that be a benefit to all?

It would if it were beleivable. You tend to shoot more shit than a North Korean radio.

Quote:

Want to road test another amp? Send it from Germany postage paid to these guy's who are taking their time to inform us, they'll use it, review it, and let you know how they feel about it. This is a REVIEW NOT A COMPARISON.

I don't have products to be 'road tested'. And I don't BASH products because I want to push other products, I bash (by your definiton) products because they deserve it. I don't make up stuff.
So tell me, how can there be a review about the performance of an amp completely without comparison? By what standard does this amp perform 'good' or 'bad'? And where is it stated that a review here can't contain lines like 'I compared it to my Crest CA18 and it blew it away'?

You would have to understand the definition of a review. So because you don't I have included it below.

Quote:

Bennett, guy's, please continue to evaluate this amp and report back with your findings. I appreciate the effort and look forward to your next review / Road Test. Thank you! I'm done.

Again, I never said, never intended and never want them to stop their test. Why should I? What's the worst thing that could happen? That you'll have to scroll down some pages before you can read their review?


Well there you go Jens. Still trying to make people think you know what your talking about. And that 100 amps from a 115 line. Even without the math isn't that a little less than a 1 ohm load. I think you have amplifiers and arc welders confused with each other, and to tell the truth it sounds like you should have been a welder.

Comparison
is the action, or an act, of comparing, likening, or representing as similar, the relation between things such as admits of their being compared, comparable condition or character, always with negative expressed or implied. "What is that to you? Follow me."

Review
determining the feasibility, appropriateness, relevance, effectiveness, and efficiency of an issue and drawing the consequent conclusions by the leadership or external parties on the basis of all relevant facts at hand.

It's called a review - Understand the difference now?
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Pascal Pincosy

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2006, 12:51:39 am »

From the first Road Test review, emphasis is mine:

Bennett Prescott wrote

I just had an extremely informative chat on the phone with Mark.

Here's what's really going on: The Road Test forum will be a separate forum from the ones we currently know and love. It is not an arena for manufacturers to bribe big names in the audio business into spewing fluffy reviews out their proverbial rears. It is unfortunate that the TT24 review appeared that way, but that is due to a number of factors, not the least of which is that it's the first of its kind and Steve Beatty is used to mixing on a lot less, so isn't coming at this from the LAB-level perspective.

What Mark is really trying to do is get meaningful, near-real-time, un-glossed-over reviews about products that have a lot of interest in the marketplace but not a lot of exposure. He wants to try an use his clout as president of Huge Universe to get manufacturers to send products to people the pro audio community respects for a real hands on review. Everyone wins in this case, since the manufacturer gets feedback and exposure, and the LAB gets a meaningful review. The manufacturers will not be allowed to edit content, and hopefully there will be a meaningful discussion of features and impressions started so that LABsters can get their points of interest covered by whomever has the product being reviewed.


Seems to me that since Jens has thankfully brought up these possible issues, this is now a call to the reviewers to double-check for problems like running on low voltaqe, shorting in a humid environment, and sounding crappy on subs. I would think that comparisions with a well-known competitor would be helpful.

There's also the easily accessable and seldom used "ignore all messages by this user" button...
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Pascal Pincosy

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2006, 01:27:24 am »

BTW Bob, in the comment about 100 amps at 120 volts mains, Jens was refering to an amp from Studio R in Brasil called the X12, which is an 11,000 watts RMS Class-H amplifier that pulls up to 68 amps 220v (so I'd guess about 125 amps @120v) at its peak current draw.

You would probably need a revised distro to run an amp like this with a 2 Ohm load, maybe up to 100 amps @ 120v per circuit Smile
Though I think 50 amps per circuit @ 120v would be fine for almost all applications not involving a 2 Ohm load and a Drum & Bass/Hardcore show.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2006, 10:17:38 am »

Pascal Pincosy wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 01:27

BTW Bob, in the comment about 100 amps at 120 volts mains, Jens was refering to an amp from Studio R in Brasil called the X12, which is an 11,000 watts RMS Class-H amplifier that pulls up to 68 amps 220v (so I'd guess about 125 amps @120v) at its peak current draw.

You would probably need a revised distro to run an amp like this with a 2 Ohm load, maybe up to 100 amps @ 120v per circuit Smile
Though I think 50 amps per circuit @ 120v would be fine for almost all applications not involving a 2 Ohm load and a Drum & Bass/Hardcore show.



13,200 Watts @ 1.5 ohms, IEC, 500ms, 136A @ 115V, 68A @ 220V. These are all maximum ratings. The EIA ratings are considerably lower.

As quoted from Meyer;

"When an amplifier is rated in RMS watts, this is a shorthand way of saying “average watts obtained by the RMS method.” If you use a signal other than a sine wave, you must use a meter reading ‘true’ RMS voltage to obtain the correct average power.

So what about peak power? Peak power is a special case where Ppeak = Epeak * I peak. For a sine wave, this is always twice the average power. A major problem with using this rating, however, is that many power amplifiers cannot maintain peak power for more than a few milliseconds.

The standard method of testing a power amplifier to see if the power supply can maintain continuous peak power is to connect all channels of the amplifier into load resistors, drive the amplifier’s input with a square wave and monitor the peak voltage at the outputs. Almost all power amplifiers will ‘sag’ in output power under this drive condition.

Now, having a power amplifier produce twice the continuous sine wave power is hardly necessary for music reproduction, but sometimes music signals produce short-term square wave or large sine wave-like waveforms. So how long should a power amplifier be able to maintain reproduction of a square wave or sine wave at full amplitude?

Recently Meyer Sound measured a well-known dual 18” subwoofer system that came with a power amplifier. The amplifier’s power supply rail when it was not being driven sat at 160 volts. Using this rail voltage, we could calculate the instantaneous peak power for a 4 ohm (resistive) load to be:

E2/R = 1602/4 = 6,400 watts per channel

Thus, we could claim this amplifier has well over 12,000 watts of peak power. This is a very impressive power rating to publish, but is it at all meaningful? Meyer Sound engineers drove the system with a single, drum note of 40 milliseconds in duration. The power amplifier rail voltage plummeted from 160 volts to 80 volts while playing the note. This 80-volt drop in output level acts as a compressor on the audio. The transducers used in this system were very non-linear, producing a large amount of second harmonic distortion."

These are incredible amplifiers Jens is talking about and they would probably work quite well from a 230V 30A source. Note that the published EIA rating  for the amp indicates it will draw 19.3 amps and produce 6600 watts per channel under a 2 OHM load. I look at this as a real world figure. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Jens also makes a deal out of 115v and lives in a country where 230V is standard.



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Bob Leonard

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2006, 10:55:17 am »

From the independent review. See link below;

In addition to their efficient power/weight ratio, these amps also feature sophisticated circuitry that requires some in-depth examination. For many years now the Wenden-based company Camco from the southern part of the German „Sauerland“ region has made an excellent name for itself by marketing its own high-quality products, in addition to various other distribution activities. The Camco program includes dimmer packs of all sizes as well as Camco power amps,which are currently marketed under the names DL and DX. Both series enjoy a reputation as high-grade and indestructible workhorses, which are, however, not particularly light-weight and employ conventional power supply circuitry. At this year’s Music Fair in Frankfurt Camco presented the first model of the new Vortex Series, the Vortex 6,which is a completely new design and follows the trend of the time. It was the first time that designer Carsten Wegner employed switched mode power supplies, without which a power amp from this performance category will hardly have any future. The goal was to get into the 6,000-watt range of total power,which makes quite stringent demands on the peripheral circuitry and protective devices used; after all, „normal wall outlets“ can deliver a long-term maximum of 3,600 watts only.

http://www.camcoaudio.com/downloads/review_vortex_prod-partn er.pdf
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Jens Droessler

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2006, 11:49:01 am »

@ Bob Leonard: I said it CAN draw this current, not that it does it all the time! It CAN do full cycle for quite a time, where every other light weight amp has to pass. And that's all I said. It's not a bad thing those amps CAN draw this current.
The EIA tests use usually a signal very close to 'common pop music' (fullrange!), that has very little to do with 80Hz lowpassed signals at a hiphop concert for example. These would have significant lower crest, so more current than the EIA rated 19.3A at 230V would be drawn then.
I was talking about 115V so people from the US can picture it more easily as they calculate with 115V every day.

Another thing I don't care about is what YOU think of me.  You say I'm bashing the Camcos for no reason? I say YOU're bashing me! I'm not bashing anything. You can check out at any time if I'm right or wrong. What would be the sense in telling wrong stories if anyone could proof me wrong with real evidence? I'm convinced that most things I told people about are reproduceable issues.

You really believe a highly ad-sponsored magazine can do 'free' reviews? I subscribed this magazine and I can tell you that NO product has EVER got a bad review there. It's quite simple: You put ads for half a year there, you get a review. If you don't put ads there, no review at all. The review you get will be made in a way that makes the decision to continue the ads easy. You have to read between the lines to find the issues.... which you WOULD have found if you read the FULL article in German. The 'weak bass' issue is covered there even in the measurement for example!

@ RYAN: So you think running around +-200V at the output stage of a high power amplifier equipped with tightly packed SMD transistors makes no difference to the 5V/+15V/-15V internal running other gear in terms of humidity? Ok, then.
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Tom Manchester

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2006, 01:55:50 pm »

This is starting to get rediculous. It's the holiday season so all anyone wants to rent is my wireless lavaliers and lights. Still haven't had a chance to take this baby out for a spin yet. Although I did use it with my trx-153 for my sound active christmas tree lights.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2006, 09:18:51 pm »

Tom,
How about setting up the "A" rig in front of the house while you play Pat Boone christmas carols over and over again all weekend long at max volume. Maybe some of the chipmunks once in a while?
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Tom Manchester

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Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2006, 12:11:00 pm »

Bob Leonard wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 21:18

Tom,
How about setting up the "A" rig in front of the house while you play Pat Boone christmas carols over and over again all weekend long at max volume. Maybe some of the chipmunks once in a while?


Lol, well my neighborhood isn't terribly rough, but I don't think the A rig would last 2 minutes outside playing pat boone before it was turned into firewood!

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