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[Kit Hannah]

Duane Massey wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 13:18

Personally I'd rather have 8 250w halogen scanners from the rear than 2 250w discharge fixtures in a medium-size venue, as long as you aren't using 1k Pars for wash lights.

Even 300 watt cans will walk all over them. Just not bright enough in my opinion.

[Kit Hannah]

Eric Wong wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 13:19

What about the Martin RoboScan Pro 518? Its cheaper then the SCX700 and there are a few on ebay right now. http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=roboscanpr o518

The Roboscan 518 was always a solid fixture - as long as they are the upgraded ones. It's okay on features, does have I think 5 rotating gobos, but the bracket system is kind funky and it's not very easy to point them anywhere but down - plus there heavy for the size of fixture. I think they weigh almost as much as our yoke fixtures....

[Eric Wong!]

Is there any book or online guide for tips on lighting?  Not so much stage lighting, but portable 'night club style' lighting, like what to aim where, what to use when, etc.  As you can tell, I'm a complete newbie.  

Although my primary interest is sound and audio, I've always loved the light shows at the various clubs.  At a few of the higher end clubs I've been to, all they had was just intelligent lights.  One in particular, (hammerjacks in Baltimore before it shut down) were the older intellabeams as mentioned (you're right, now that I think about it the gobo's never rotated, but honestly I don't think anybody cared).  However, I counted no less then 35 intelligent light fixtures, it was a 2 story club, with an open balcony.  Lights on both the upper ceiling, and on the ceiling below the 'mezzanine area", so LOTS of lights.  Not sure how 'professional' it was run but I thought the LJ did a pretty damn good job with the effects to the music etc.  

[Kit Hannah]

I'm not say ing that the intellabeams were a ad fixture by any means - they pretty much revolutionized the scanner market. Just about anything an a very large quantity is going to look good with the right programmer. It's just become outdated technology and the fixtures are heavier than shit. There are much better alternatives out there right now. Believe me if you got 8 intellabeams, it would probably look great, but you will get very tired, very fast, of moving those fixtures in and out of your gigs. Our Martin 1220's were awesome fixtures - and we have a full time crew of 6. But every time we went to load them in and out, we all stood in a circle and looked at them, then looked at each other, while all of us were thinking "who wants to do the shit job today?".

[Duane Massey]

Kit, I would have to disagree about the 250w halogens being overpowered by 300w pars. I've installed several systems using Scan250's, Trackspots, etc, and the scanners look great if used as rear lighting, even with 500w par 64's, unless you were using the pars full on with light pink or white. These were/are medium venues with 200-400 capacity and 24x16 stages.
I worked at a club for 9 months where the front lights were 8 300w par56, and we used 4 Chauvet Intimidators, with virtually no smoke (it was a supper club), and the lights got a lot of favorable notice. Being and old rock'n'roll guy I would have preferred more lights and a smoke machine, but we can't always get what we want.
That's one of the more challenging thing about lighting. What looks great to me to may look horrible to someone else, so I always try to look at the whole picture. A small band that plays 200 seat clubs doesn't need the same horsepower that a lighting professional who has to please different clients and circumstances (the same is true for sound systems, but that's a different subject).
To be fair, though, ther is a great difference between the discharge and the halogen, just as there is a big difference between the 250w discharge and the 575's, and there should be... otherwise we're paying a lot extra for nothing (except the extra features that most bigger fixtures offer). If budget is not an issue, I'd definitely go for Power Spot 250's and Vision Scan 250's, and Power Wash 575's, and....but if the budget gives you a choice of 2 Power Spots run in stand-alone or 8 Perfomance Scans and a Showdesigner for rear lighting, I'd pass on the Power Spots for now, and add them later.
Just me, though. That's why I participate in these forums, because we all have different opinions, and they're all valid.
I learn something almost everyday from this site.

[Kit Hannah]

Duane Massey wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 15:54

Kit, I would have to disagree about the 250w halogens being overpowered by 300w pars. I've installed several systems using Scan250's, Trackspots, etc, and the scanners look great if used as rear lighting, even with 500w par 64's, unless you were using the pars full on with light pink or white.

If if if... How about get a light that can handle growing needs? And by the way, aren't Trackspots an arcstream 150 watt discharge? The problem with halogens is that not only is it not bright enough to do much with, but your whites turn out pretty yellow. A hallogen naturally produces a yellow light. Anybody ever purchased one of those yellow hallogen flood lights for 8 bucks at home depot? Those are twice as bright.... A discharge lamp is much much brighter and burns a gas to make a pure white. Go to a lighting shop, you could even go to Guitar Center and do a comparison. A lot of them have like a Mac 250 Krypton hanging in their pro-audio room a 250 watt hallogen in the DJ room - go do a comparison.

Duane Massey wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 15:54

but if the budget gives you a choice of 2 Power Spots run in stand-alone or 8 Perfomance Scans and a Showdesigner for rear lighting, I'd pass on the Power Spots for now, and add them later.

A 250 discharge is not going to cost 4-5 times the price for a similarly featured fixture. If you settle for fixtures, it's just going to cost you in the long run. If that scenario were presented to me, I would go with the powerspots - you're gonna see them, and they look way more impressive. If you by crap lights, they're gonna look like crap. They may not last very long and they may only be available for 6 months. Now, I'm not saying that you should go get a Mac2k or 575's for that matter, but the 250 watt discharge is kind of the medium where things become "professional". I've seen tours using 250 watt fixtures for special purposes (WWE) and you could see them in Arena's with 18,000 people in them and all the lights on.

My point is to not settle. Do you want to be doing backyard parties at 200 bucks a pop, or $2000 Theater Productions and other events? Because that's the real difference between the fixtures.

[Duane Massey]

Kit, no offense, but you probably haven't been in the pro lighting field for very long, or you would know that the Trackspot used a 250w 24v halogen lamp. It had a very well-designed reflector that was much more effecient than the MR16-type lamps (ELC, etc). Some of the newer fixtures (ADJ Scan250, etc) also use a separate lamp and reflector, which does improve the optics.
There is no doubt that a discharge lamp has a better color temperature than a halogen, and the output is greater, but a well-designed 250w halogen fixture is quite useable in a lot of applications. For the cost of one PowerSpot250 (an excellent fixture) you can purchase 4 Scan250's and have a decent rear-lighting system for a small band in a medium bar. There are at least 2 dozen bands in Houston alone that are using Trackspots, Martin MX-1's, Intimidators, and other halogen fixtures along with Par56's, and are quite pleased with the effect.
Obviously our experiences in the field are different, and I won't argue that a 250w discharge is preferrable to a 250w halogen, but I've worked with too many bands and clubs on a budget to agree that halogen fixtures can't keep up with 300w pars.

[Kit Hannah]

You're right, 16 years isn't a very long time.....and I apologize for not knowing every spec on every fixture in the industry.... Duane, you're comparing apples to oranges here. A scanner to a yoke? C'mon, at least compare a scanner to a scanner...

Elation used to sell (and I thought they still did) a fixture called The Active Scan 250, which is basically the Performance Scan 250 with a 250 watt Discharge Lamp - we actually considered purchasing these before we purchased our Powerspot 250's. We compared this fixture side by side with a 250 watt halogen, and there was no question by a long shot of the overall brightness of the msd250.

http://www.elationlighting.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1 194&cat=ZDiscontinued

I guess it's been discontinued, but for an extra couple hundred dollars per fixture, you could have had a msd250, which would have worked for more than just bars and small clubs. If that's all you're doing, then fine - get the hallogens. But if you ever want to progress in this business (as most people do when they are getting into it), you need decent stuff - I'm not saying the most expensive and the best in the world stuff, but higher quality gear will generally fetch more money.

I just hate to see people waste their money - I know we did. We bought a MX-1 system when they first came out. 250 halogen, whatever. Sure they were okay for smaller stuff. But getting into a large club or school gym, they just don't cut through pars. That's all we would run - 300 watt pars and MX-1's. Again, it worked okay for small stuff, but they majorly lacked in versatility.

Duane, I just don't think we're seeing eye to eye on this. But I also think that we may be talking about using the lights in different ways too. If you have cans pointed towards the stage and halogens in the back pointed at a crowd, with a decent fog machine or hazer, you might get a nice effect. But as a DJ, all that light is going out towards the audience, not necessarily on the performer. And many times, we wouldn't gel the cans, or we would put yellows / pinks on them. using 8 cans like that with some mx1's, the mx1's will get lost pretty quickly.

Overall, we just prefer a quality fixture over some of the not so quality ones. The elation line is generally a little more well made than the ADJ line. Same company, but different Chinese products. And if that means shelling out a little more money on the front end, you'll see way more on the back. Plus, you'll be more versatile, able to do more, and it's expandable.

[Duane Massey]

Kit, there is no doubt that using 250w halogens for front lighting is not very effective. There is also a great difference even between the various halogen fixtures. The MX-1, for example, looks incredible anemic next to a Trackspot or a Scan250, even though they both use 250w 24v lamps. The MX-1 uses a MR16 lamp, while the Trackspot and Scan250 use EHJ's with a separate reflector. There is a difference even among 250w discharge fixtures, but you may not really notice unless they are side-by-side.
And wattage is not always the total issue. An original Intellabeam used a 400w lamp. The next generation used a 700w lamp. Technobeams used a 250w lamp. Unless they were side by side, the Technobeams seemed to be just as bright. Better optics, better design.
The ActiveScan/Wave fixtures went away shortly after the Accu-series came out. Although they looked on the outside similar to the Scan250, there was nothing in common internally.

I appreciate the fact that you have 16 years in the business, but I have been doing this since 1968, in all aspects of the business. A lot of my knowledge and experiences don't have a lot of relevence in the current day (we used to do light shows with Pyrex plates, food coloring and oil, and a couple of overhead projectors), but I also am a certified techncian on High End products. I've had to repair nearly all major brands of fixtures, whith the exception of the big touring stuff.Part of my job description is service department manager, another part is lighting programmer, and when needed I also design lighting packages for clubs, churches, and bands. I will freely admit that I have never worked as a DJ, but I have helped several local mobile DJ's design and package their systems.
Let's face it, what works for one guy doesn't for another. There are bands and dj's making a good living using equipment that a guy who does corporate stuff would be absolutely positive would never work. I try and keep an open mind about most things, as just when I think I know what I talking about, somone makes me stop and re-think what I thought I knew.
Regardless of what we may all think (or want to think) it is very possible to enjoy yourself and make money while using cheap equipment that you and I would not even bother taking out of a dumpster. That's probably why my garage has no room for a car, as I've got various pieces of light and sound gear going back 25 years that I can't seem to throw away.

[Kit Hannah]

Agreed, Duane. Fair enough. Great bickering with you though...