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Author Topic: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5  (Read 22105 times)

Chris Coleman 2

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danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« on: June 08, 2006, 10:34:09 am »

I notice that both the bassmaxx z-5 and the danley sound labs th-115 are very similar in exploiting the technique where you don't throw away the rear pressure wave like the LAB does, but you let it conribute to the overall output power of the box.

In fact I believe that the entire line of bassmaxx subs uses this technique of raising the efficiency by adding the backward to the forward pressure wave.

Not to mention that these subs are very efficient AND they do not require FOUR cabinets (1000 pounds of cabinet) to reach their intended low extension like the LAB SUB does. It seems that one or two boxes (200-500 pounds) is enough to hit 34 Hz.

Efficiency-wise they seem close: 136 max spl for the danley sound labs th-115, 138 db long term peak output for the bassmaxx z-5.

Maybe it is time for a new LAB design... "LAB version 4"  that takes advantage of this principle of timing the front pressure wave and back presure waves to add together, increasing efficiency, and reducing the number of cabs needed to reach 35 Hz.

Comments / opinions ??

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jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)

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Re: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2006, 11:17:09 am »

oooh new lab yeah yeah! lets chain tom up in the basement, DONT COME OUT UNTIL IT SOUNDS GOOD!!!
Smile

I havent used the new bassmaxx yet.. the older ones yes. but they dont sound as good as the th115 to me. The danley box is definatley tighter and higher fidelity. Altho The (z5 is it?) might be better than the previous ones.. its sort of what you can expect from a big mega super excursion 18"
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Phil Pope

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Re: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2006, 12:23:27 pm »

have you got a link for the new bassmaxx?

phil
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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2006, 12:39:02 pm »

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Mark Seaton

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Re: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2006, 12:53:32 pm »

Chris Coleman 2 wrote on Thu, 08 June 2006 09:34

I notice that both the bassmaxx z-5 and the danley sound labs th-115 are very similar in exploiting the technique where you don't throw away the rear pressure wave like the LAB does, but you let it conribute to the overall output power of the box.

In fact I believe that the entire line of bassmaxx subs uses this technique of raising the efficiency by adding the backward to the forward pressure wave.



Not quite right.

The BASSMAXX designs use the open back side of the box to allow for a more efficient design above the point where the front and rear start to destructively interfier.  The horn magnifies the front radiation and puts distance and time between the front and rear wave.  Above roughly 40Hz the front wave from the horn is significantly louder than the rear.  From what I have seen in measurements, below this range the output starts attenuating by ~6dB/octave, the same as a dipole.  Of course adjustements to the drivers and EQ can make the output flat, but the driver is working harder.  In this case the stiffness of the drivers' suspension serves similar purpose as the small rear chamber of the LAB sub.  Of course down low the LAB doesn't self cancel, but rather the system has been ballanced to maximize efficiency to it's low corner in the 28-35Hz range.

The Tapped Horn truly does use the rear radiation of the driver.  Being a higher order system, it offers greater sensitivity and driver loading down to it's low corner (for a given box size) and then falls off more quickly below that corner.  If you like analogies to udnerstand these systems, if you can see the extrapolated similarities between a T-Line and a ported box, and a horn like the LAB sub and a 4th order, front loaded bandpass (sealed rear, reflex front - http://www.diysubwoofers.org/bnd/4thorder.htm), you can then see that the Tapped Horn is most comparable to the 6th order, series bandpass as shown here:  http://www.diysubwoofers.org/bnd/6thord4.htm
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Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." - Daniel H. Burnham

Phil Pope

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Re: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2006, 01:14:12 pm »

Antone Atmarama Bajor wrote on Thu, 08 June 2006 17:39

www.bassmaxx.com



it's not there, is it?
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Chris Coleman 2

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Re: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2006, 01:31:45 pm »

Right, it's not on bassmaxx.com (too new??), but it's here:

http://catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/CTL2982/index.cfm?mlc_i d=2982&SID=0&pin_id=1786&ProdID=342448&T3=13 7

Hmm... just found this. An interesting shootout organized by Wayne Parham in tulsa said of the Z-5:
Quote:

Did any of you notice how incredibly flat the Z5 response curve is? Amazing. And I think David was somewhat conservative in his choice to use 1200 watts as maximum power. Had he gone to 1600 watts, this would have added 2.5dB more output if there was no compression. So that would put the Z5 in the 135dB or 136dB range, with a perfectly flat response. That's some pretty impressive stuff, especially for a single horn.


http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/262.html

http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/249.html
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Phil Pope

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Re: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2006, 02:41:16 pm »

these results from the shootout

http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/249.html

show that the Z5 response falls at 18dB/octave below 70Hz. this does't seem very impressive for a sub or am I missing something?

Phil
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Tom Danley

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Re: danley sound labs TH-115 vs bassmaxx Z-5
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2006, 05:45:35 pm »

Hi

A few thoughts, for a horn which has one side of the driver exposed, like the BassMaxx’s or an old “scoop” for that matter, the driver suspension takes the place of the stiffness one normally uses (in the form of a sealed box) in a conventional horn (like a lab).
The issue here is not that there is “spare energy” that can be picked up by using the rear of the driver, a horn can load the driver just fine on one (either) side.
Rather, the reason for the Tapped horn is that when one makes the horn “too small” then one gets large peaks and dips in the response.  Those are caused by the acoustic load on the driver changing too much (on account of the horn mouth being too small).
The idea in the tapped horn is that by including both faces of the radiator within the horn passage,  separated by distance (phase), the load on the driver is then comprised of the load on one side at some frequencies and both sides at another (as well as “in between”).
In effect, by making the driver’s radiating area change with frequency, one can accommodate a much smaller horn (the changing impedance it presents to the driver).
The physical arrangement is as Mark pointed out, is conceptually similar to the BP system he linked with the air Volumes being very small and the horn (instead of  ports) being more normally sized. The roll off on a Tapped horn varies between 24 dB per octave (like a vented box) to about 18dB per octave or a little less (a sealed box is 12 dB per octave) depending on size / frequency.

As I am unaware of anything similar and being a “new” kind of horn with some apparent advantages,  I have applied for a patent on this  . It would be “premature” to make a LAB project out of it but who knows maybe someday.

FWIW, 1200Watts is 30.79dB over 1Watt, 1600Watts is 32.04dB over 1Watt, thus an increase from 1200 to 1600Watts is (with no power compression) is a change of 1.25dB, not 2.5dB.

When someone provides a measurement in a repeatable condition, then one can compare devices.  I wish more folks published real response measured curves.  
I have posted a higher resolution (than on the website) measurement of a TH-115 at 10 meters and 100Watts input (~3.5Hz bw, 1 /10 octave vector smoothing) equal to 1W1M.
While the measurement is only of the subwoofer range (it is a subwoofer), one could overlay the two relevant portions of the curves and compare the two at the same distance, same power level.   Maybe someone with more skill than me can scale and overlay them in photoshop.

When comparing,  levels VS frequencies, remember the TH115 is also smaller, it is 40 by 22 1/2 by 28 (with wheels) @ 120Lbs   –VS-   42 by 42 by 22 ½  @<200lbs (w/o wheels).
What would really be fun is to compare the Z-5, labsub and 115 to some of the “big name, expensive” subwoofers out there, some of which obviously “play with” the numbers and also (because of?) have no response curves.  
Here is where the marketing BS is going to cost the “Goliath’s” in the long run (I hope).
I think many would be down right pissed off if they knew what some speakers actually did compared to what was claimed, hence, I encourage people to measure for themselves.

Fwiw, I have met the Bass Max guys at a couple trade shows, the designer and I have some things in common and I do wish them good luck ( they have a powerful boxes too).
Best Regards

Tom Danley










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William Cowan

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Just the numbers TH-115 vs Z-5
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2006, 07:28:04 pm »

G'day Tom and others

This is a really interesting comparison. Here are two horn subs that are at the front of the field, yet results are very different. I overlaid the numbers from the Bassmaxx 28.28V/10M test with the single TH115 under the same conditions and came to some interesting conclusions.

The TH115 has about 5dB more output at 30Hz, 10dB more at 40Hz, 5dB more at 50Hz, then they are pretty much the same to 150Hz. What makes this remarkable is that the TH115 is only 64% of the cubic capacity and weight of the Z-5. The TH115 also uses a driver that is much cheaper to replace than the Z-5, should one be destroyed.

Not knowing what the Z-5 costs, it's impossible to compare prices. I would have to assume that because it uses a more expensive driver, and is bigger and more complex, the Z-5 would be significantly more costly than the TH115.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it appears the tapped horn has a huge advantage when used alone. I would have to assume this advantage would diminish as multiple boxes were stacked. Are there any numbers for a block of four Bassmaxx cabs? (Or even more interesting, a block of four EAW BH822e/BH760. (I've never seen a response graph for those Rolling Eyes ))

Cheers

William Cowan
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