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Author Topic: Good Mid Bass Horn  (Read 40808 times)

Peter Morris

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2006, 03:10:35 AM »

I don’t think you need a straight horn – the bends just have to be smooth relative to the wave length of the highest frequency – if the LAB sub can operate up to 100 Hz a folded mid horn can operate up to 400 Hz provided the “flat bits” on the bends are 1/4 the size of the LABs.

Peter
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Gordon Brinton

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2006, 05:06:50 AM »

Antone Atmarama Bajor wrote on Sun, 14 May 2006 17:00

     I was wondering if there are any good hyperbolic midbass horn designs out there that are already optimized for drivers like JBL 2225/2226.  I have the Drivers in vented cabs already, but they are no match SPL wise for My BT7' around Xover.

    I'm not sure that the drivers are actually a good choice for horn loading but I have them so I will use them if I can.  I'm about to Dive into Hornresp.  But I see no sense in reinventing the Wheel.  If there are already Low distortion phase minimals cab designs suitable for the drivers I'd prefer to use the existing design.

    I'm thinking a Low Cut between 60-80Hz and a High cut around 300-600Hz.

    Thanks

Antone-


Antone,

I've been pondering the problem of stronger low mid too but then I back up and ask myself...are you certain that more midbass is what you need? While toms and guitars can benefit from midbass, vocals can get boomy real quick if they are abundant in the 250Hz region.

I've heard a few PA's out there that needed some slight cuts to the low mid because they had some bad resonant frequency or something. Maybe it was due to using cheap speakers.

Oh well, just food for thought. Carry on.
Gordon
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Gareth James

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2006, 08:49:20 AM »

Hi Antone...have you considered buying new tops at all? What are you using for mids highs?

If getting new tops becomes an option at all i think you should look into some martin audio H3's ... 3way all horn loaded system, for 140 degree horz you'll want 2 units per side. Each unit has a hornloaded 15" that will more than cover the range you're talking about.
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Chris Davis

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2006, 10:09:24 AM »

Peter James wrote on Wed, 17 May 2006 03:10

I don’t think you need a straight horn – the bends just have to be smooth relative to the wave length of the highest frequency – if the LAB sub can operate up to 100 Hz a folded mid horn can operate up to 400 Hz provided the “flat bits” on the bends are 1/4 the size of the LABs.

Peter


You know of any actual cabs like that?
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Chris Davis

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2006, 12:58:04 PM »

Gordon Brinton wrote on Wed, 17 May 2006 05:06


Antone,

I've been pondering the problem of stronger low mid too but then I back up and ask myself...are you certain that more midbass is what you need? While toms and guitars can benefit from midbass, vocals can get boomy real quick if they are abundant in the 250Hz region.

I've heard a few PA's out there that needed some slight cuts to the low mid because they had some bad resonant frequency or something. Maybe it was due to using cheap speakers.

Oh well, just food for thought. Carry on.
Gordon



My experience in hearing the improvement of midbass through a good straight horn is quite like the improvement in hearing sub bass from a well designed folded horn (aka LAB sub).  In either case, more "loudness" wouldn't be the point so much as reduced distortion, better intelligibility and nicer sound.    
 
My experience has been that the problems of boominess or loudness go away when using a proper midbass horn to cover that range.

Larger systems with multiple full-range cabinets present a possibility or two to work around this.  

Installs sometimes use dedicated midbass horns as a direct way to address this need.

Otherwise, integrating an effective sized midbass horn into a full range cabinet would either impose limitations on the horn (and therefore require multiple cabinets coupled) or else would produce a rather large speaker.

In this case the poster is trying to bridge the gap between tops he already has, to subs similar to the LAB subs in perforance.
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Peter Morris

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2006, 08:00:24 PM »

Yep ... all the ones I have listed above.  KV2, Funktion 1.

Martin F2 & Turbo Sound TMS 2,3 &4 do this up to about 200 - 300 Hz and EAW do it up to about 185Hz in the KF 760

Have a look at what Bill Fitzmaurice does with his boxes, while I have a few issues with his designs he's getting useful response above 1 to 2 kHz with a folded horn !  

I guess you could even include thing like EVs DH2 & DH3 compression drivers. The phase plug lots of bends in these things - same priniciple.

Peter
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Chris Davis

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2006, 10:29:31 PM »

Peter James wrote on Wed, 17 May 2006 20:00

Yep ... all the ones I have listed above.  KV2, Funktion 1.

Martin F2 & Turbo Sound TMS 2,3 &4 do this up to about 200 - 300 Hz and EAW do it up to about 185Hz in the KF 760

Have a look at what Bill Fitzmaurice does with his boxes, while I have a few issues with his designs he's getting useful response above 1 to 2 kHz with a folded horn !  

I guess you could even include thing like EVs DH2 & DH3 compression drivers. The phase plug lots of bends in these things - same priniciple.

Peter


Looks like good reading material for my next flight in a couple days.  The part that is new to me is the use of fancy phase plugs to accomplish this.  I am interested in how/if that benefits the lower midbass frequencies so much as it might the midrange, as in other designs that use phase plugs for midrange.

I would expect that any folded horns would perform the best or cleanest within a tangible constrained frequency range, similar to the LAB subs.
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Peter Morris

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2006, 01:26:20 AM »

The idea of the phase plug is to equalise the path lengths from the diaphragm to the throat exit  – with the DH2 and DH3 some of the paths have sharp bends in them but they are very narrow compared to the wavelengths, so there is no problem.  

In this case I think its all to do with cost. It makes construction easy and enables the use of a much cheaper “standard” magnet structure, which does not require a phase plug assembly through the centre of the magnet.  

A bend does not increase performance, at best it has no effect, however by folding the horn (especially bass) up you can reduce the box size.

My point is:- yes you can fold a mid horn – you just have to make the bends smooth relative to the wavelength of the highest frequency you are going to use it for.
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Duane Massey

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2006, 01:54:41 AM »

It's been my experience that non-horn boxes can exhibit a nasty resonance at several bands, 120hz being the owrst and 240hz right behind it, especially with live mics. If you pull this out with your EQ, it does remave the "boominess", but you also lose that portion of the sonic spectrum.
A good bass horn (not a sub-woofer) will make a real difference in this area, but they are not very common.
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Duane Massey
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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Good Mid Bass Horn
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2006, 03:12:45 AM »

I already have the 2225 Drivers and some 2445 Compression drivers.

    I was thinking of sticking some 077's on top since I have them sitting around to add a little extra breath to the sound since the 2445's sound like garbage much higher than 8K.  We'll see how long it takes me to melt the 077's.

    Since I don't have much money right now I think I'll just see what I come up with modeling with Horn Resp.  So Far I have had good response down to 50Hz modeled even though I specified the horn to be 60Hz cut off.  But the HF seems to roll of rapidly above 250-300.  I will see If I can get better HF extension if I shot for a 80Hz cut off.

    I used a T of .55 Like the Lab and BT7 (Hyperbolic flare).  I don't know if there is a better expansion constant for mid bass???  I'm hoping to avoid any sort of diffraction slot crap to prevent beaming.  I don't really know too much about designing a good phase plug.  But I'd like to avoid anything that would reflect energy and cause poor decay times.

    Any how thanks for the suggestions I figure since I've been bitten by the sawdust bug I may as well see what I can come up with.

Antone-  
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