ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: I've heard it all now!  (Read 4181 times)

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
I've heard it all now!
« on: May 04, 2006, 08:03:00 pm »

We are bidding on a job and I had some real issues with the consultants system design.  There is no way to get close to even coverage in the space.  Our salesman told this to the building commitee, who in turn passed it on the the consultant.  The consultant responded (we have this in a email) with the following statement.  We know that the system design has some limitations due to the budget constraints.  However with proper mic technique the sound will be even across the room.

DO WHAT????

This will be a fun one-NOT!
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Andy Peters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9104
    • http://www.latke.net/
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2006, 08:38:35 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Thu, 04 May 2006 17:03

We are bidding on a job and I had some real issues with the consultants system design.  There is no way to get close to even coverage in the space.  Our salesman told this to the building commitee, who in turn passed it on the the consultant.  The consultant responded (we have this in a email) with the following statement.  We know that the system design has some limitations due to the budget constraints.  However with proper mic technique the sound will be even across the room.

DO WHAT????

This will be a fun one-NOT!


Politely get out of this situation by turning in an excessively expensive bid Smile

-a
Logged
"This isn't some upside down inverted Socratic method where you throw out your best guess answers and I correct your work." -- JR


"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."

Don Boone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 782
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2006, 09:41:11 pm »

He meant proper mic technique with the analyser.

Don
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2006, 10:06:32 pm »

I don't think so.  He was referring to the customer usage, and I don't think (at least hope not) that the customer will be setting up the system.  And it does not matter what measurement mic technique you use, it will not fix poor coverage.  

Unless you want to use "doctored" measurements to "prove" the system is in spec-despite customer complaints.

Of course you could do like one VERY MAJOR MANUFACTURER did and prove the system was in spec in a 2500 seat room.  I measured it and it fit within a 25-30 dB window.  They came in and gave the measured data to the customer that proved it was within +-4dB.  You did not have to measure it-just listen.  They were getting something on the order of 100 emails every week complaining.

The data consisted of a single graph with dB level on the left vertical side and seat positions on the horizontal.  The SPL was within stated spec.  So why alla the complaints every week about the sound?  Because the measurement was full band pink noise.  The system had a BIG peak around 125Hz that was something like 18dB hotter than everything else.  The rest of the spectrum was all over the place, varing greatly.  The SPL meter was simply picking up on the hottest signal.

I took before and after measurements.  Although I am not a fan at all of the particular loudspeakers in question, we took all of them down and rehung them (properly) and gave several back to the customer.  The end result was a FAR flatter response and the complaints about the sound system stopped after that.  

You know it helps if you actually point the mid horns at the audience-instead of at the ceiling-as they were.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Andrew Sharpe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2006, 11:34:41 am »

RUN AWAY!!!!!!
Logged
One can only mix, as good as one hears.

Austin Parker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 347
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2006, 02:46:33 pm »

o come on.. it's always fun when you show people that their real name is mud Shocked ...  I say stick it out Laughing  
Logged
Austin Parker

Designer  of Audio/Video/Control Systems

"Are you with me? Do you get it? If you have to ask what "IT" is, you don't get it"

Rick Johnston

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 118
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2006, 06:29:22 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote

You know it helps if you actually point the mid horns at the audience-instead of at the ceiling-as they were.

No! Then they would be too loud! Someone would climb up there and stuff tee-shirts in them to quiet them down!  Wink

Look at the good side of bad installations, Ivan: It feels really good to walk out of a "fix" knowing we've not only solved the problem, we've gained a new customer.

Regards,
Rick Johnston
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2006, 09:53:21 pm »

AND gained some new stories Laughing .  

However it is a real shame that they are true. Sad
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Rodney Connelly

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 160
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2006, 11:14:51 pm »

Just ask if the consultant will assume the responsibility of system reliability after the installation.  I've had to walk away from a few jobs because someone else had a less than appropriate plan.  I especially love church musicians who want to install carpet covered speakers from the local music store, while hanging them with supplies from the local hardware store.  Sometimes customers just don't respect you professional opinion.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 12:57:49 am »

We have removed ALL performance guarantees from this contract, and have referenced the above email from the consultant so that the problem rests on the consultant.  The problem is that they will probably say that since we didn't use a so and so  crimp or particular brand of connector, that is the problem.

I am sure they will dodge the problem and the customer will be stuck in the middle of the "blame game".  This particular salesman needs the sale, so we will probably do it-much against my wishes.

Who knows, maybe it will only be half bad?
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Rick Johnston

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 118
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2006, 05:41:01 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Thu, 11 May 2006 00:57

I am sure they will dodge the problem and the customer will be stuck in the middle of the "blame game".  This particular salesman needs the sale, so we will probably do it-much against my wishes.

I feel your pain. Fortunately the salesman and the consultant aren't on the site every day like you are (or will be).

Customers may be ignorant when it comes to system design, integration, and operation, but they aren't stupid: They know who made it work.

By refraining from the politics of finger pointing between the consultant and your company's Honchos, you quietly build a trust with the customer.

When they need something in the future, they'll call you, not the consultant.

I'm feel like preaching to the choir here, Ivan. Just trying to make you feel better.

Regards,
Rick Johnston


Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2006, 06:03:19 pm »

We are going to be going through with it, I'll let you know how it goes.  

There was one job that was done by a competitor and there were constant complaints about the bad sound, there was VERY uneven coverage.  This was $500K system-not exactly cheap.  At a meeting about this issue they told the church (we have witnesses) that they have to understand that the budget was cut and the provider could not supply everything that was origionally proposed.  Most of the people understood and jsut said "Well-that is true".  

The real problem with that however was that the PA system itself had not been touched.  What was cut was the playback/record systems and the wireless mics.  I guess I missed the part in which the wireless mics affect the sound system coverage.  But they (the competitor) was just trying to make excusses.  We ended up rehanging and retuning the system and now the customer is happy.

Of course this is the same company (on the same job) that had the main FOH snake with a tail hanging out something like 50' (pulled during prewire).  They were going to chop off something like 30' or more during the final install.  The sheetrock guys building the booth nicked the cable about 10' from the end.  They made the customer buy a whole new snake at a cost of something like $3000, or else they would guarantee anything regarding performance in the system.  The nicked part was going to be cut off anyway!!!!

People make excusses for stuff all the time.  Yes we will be there long after all the "problem" people are gone, and at some time in the future we will be blamed-or at least accussed about the poor design.  There was a good article about "Who's fault is it anyway" a few years ago, that targeted these type things.  You really have to be there at the time to fully understand it.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Josh Millward

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
  • Meridian, MS
Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2006, 09:04:41 am »

Rick Johnston wrote on Mon, 08 May 2006 18:29

Look at the good side of bad installations, Ivan: It feels really good to walk out of a "fix" knowing we've not only solved the problem, we've gained a new customer.

Regards,
Rick Johnston



While that is true, it just frustrates the all living hell out of me that someone got paid really good money to execute an extraordinarily poor job, basically ripping off the customer. Now that customer looks at everyone in our industry as charlitans and thieves. People doing work like that, no matter WHAT size the company, make our industry look like a bunch of cheats.

I wonder no longer at why people insist on buying the bottom dollar solution. If they are going to get ripped off ANYWAY, why give away more money than they have to.

The whole situation just pisses me off.

Josh Millward
Logged
Josh Millward
Danley Sound Labs
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.061 seconds with 19 queries.