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Author Topic: I've heard it all now!  (Read 4163 times)

Ivan Beaver

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I've heard it all now!
« on: May 04, 2006, 08:03:00 pm »

We are bidding on a job and I had some real issues with the consultants system design.  There is no way to get close to even coverage in the space.  Our salesman told this to the building commitee, who in turn passed it on the the consultant.  The consultant responded (we have this in a email) with the following statement.  We know that the system design has some limitations due to the budget constraints.  However with proper mic technique the sound will be even across the room.

DO WHAT????

This will be a fun one-NOT!
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Andy Peters

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2006, 08:38:35 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Thu, 04 May 2006 17:03

We are bidding on a job and I had some real issues with the consultants system design.  There is no way to get close to even coverage in the space.  Our salesman told this to the building commitee, who in turn passed it on the the consultant.  The consultant responded (we have this in a email) with the following statement.  We know that the system design has some limitations due to the budget constraints.  However with proper mic technique the sound will be even across the room.

DO WHAT????

This will be a fun one-NOT!


Politely get out of this situation by turning in an excessively expensive bid Smile

-a
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Don Boone

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2006, 09:41:11 pm »

He meant proper mic technique with the analyser.

Don
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2006, 10:06:32 pm »

I don't think so.  He was referring to the customer usage, and I don't think (at least hope not) that the customer will be setting up the system.  And it does not matter what measurement mic technique you use, it will not fix poor coverage.  

Unless you want to use "doctored" measurements to "prove" the system is in spec-despite customer complaints.

Of course you could do like one VERY MAJOR MANUFACTURER did and prove the system was in spec in a 2500 seat room.  I measured it and it fit within a 25-30 dB window.  They came in and gave the measured data to the customer that proved it was within +-4dB.  You did not have to measure it-just listen.  They were getting something on the order of 100 emails every week complaining.

The data consisted of a single graph with dB level on the left vertical side and seat positions on the horizontal.  The SPL was within stated spec.  So why alla the complaints every week about the sound?  Because the measurement was full band pink noise.  The system had a BIG peak around 125Hz that was something like 18dB hotter than everything else.  The rest of the spectrum was all over the place, varing greatly.  The SPL meter was simply picking up on the hottest signal.

I took before and after measurements.  Although I am not a fan at all of the particular loudspeakers in question, we took all of them down and rehung them (properly) and gave several back to the customer.  The end result was a FAR flatter response and the complaints about the sound system stopped after that.  

You know it helps if you actually point the mid horns at the audience-instead of at the ceiling-as they were.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Andrew Sharpe

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2006, 11:34:41 am »

RUN AWAY!!!!!!
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Austin Parker

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2006, 02:46:33 pm »

o come on.. it's always fun when you show people that their real name is mud Shocked ...  I say stick it out Laughing  
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Austin Parker

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Rick Johnston

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2006, 06:29:22 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote

You know it helps if you actually point the mid horns at the audience-instead of at the ceiling-as they were.

No! Then they would be too loud! Someone would climb up there and stuff tee-shirts in them to quiet them down!  Wink

Look at the good side of bad installations, Ivan: It feels really good to walk out of a "fix" knowing we've not only solved the problem, we've gained a new customer.

Regards,
Rick Johnston
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2006, 09:53:21 pm »

AND gained some new stories Laughing .  

However it is a real shame that they are true. Sad
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Rodney Connelly

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2006, 11:14:51 pm »

Just ask if the consultant will assume the responsibility of system reliability after the installation.  I've had to walk away from a few jobs because someone else had a less than appropriate plan.  I especially love church musicians who want to install carpet covered speakers from the local music store, while hanging them with supplies from the local hardware store.  Sometimes customers just don't respect you professional opinion.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: I've heard it all now!
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 12:57:49 am »

We have removed ALL performance guarantees from this contract, and have referenced the above email from the consultant so that the problem rests on the consultant.  The problem is that they will probably say that since we didn't use a so and so  crimp or particular brand of connector, that is the problem.

I am sure they will dodge the problem and the customer will be stuck in the middle of the "blame game".  This particular salesman needs the sale, so we will probably do it-much against my wishes.

Who knows, maybe it will only be half bad?
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs
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