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[Vic Cowles]

Hi,

I'm new here to post.  Been a lurker for a long time.

I've recently landed a full time gig as a tech and FOH for a show dance band.  Currently running a Soundcraft GB8 with monitors from FOH.  The band leader is entertaining the idea of using external mic preamps on the vocals. What would be the benefits of this?

Thank you!

Vic  

[Andy Peters]

Vic Cowles wrote on Fri, 14 April 2006 08:36

I've recently landed a full time gig as a tech and FOH for a show dance band.  Currently running a Soundcraft GB8 with monitors from FOH.  The band leader is entertaining the idea of using external mic preamps on the vocals. What would be the benefits of this?

The people who make and sell external preamps will be able to send their kids to a better college.

-a

[John Roberts {JR}]

Vic Cowles wrote on Fri, 14 April 2006 10:36

Hi, I'm new here to post.  Been a lurker for a long time. I've recently landed a full time gig as a tech and FOH for a show dance band.  Currently running a Soundcraft GB8 with monitors from FOH.  The band leader is entertaining the idea of using external mic preamps on the vocals. What would be the benefits of this? Thank you! Vic

Make the live performance sound exactly like his hit record?

JR

PS: It is more psychological than real, with emphasis on "psycho". In some cases for large touring acts it helps to get the talent into a comfort zone, but the mic used will make 10x (100x?) the difference a preamp does.

[Dave Dermont]

I own one of the original (and now discontinued) Presonus Blue Tube preamps. It was sent to me as an evaluation sample for a review that was never published. I ended up buying it (at about half the prevailing street price) because it made a dandy stereo DI box, even if it does need power from a wall-wart.

I used it for a lot of things, and since it was a review piece, I often set up an A/B of the same input with and without the preamp for comparison. However subtle, there were differences in the sound when using the preamp. "I" thought those differences were "better".

I really dug it as a DI for Acoustic Guitars and Fiddles and such, and it never ever "sucked".

This was using a $75.00-per-channel preamp with common $2K-ish mixers. I believe that you could very easily reach a point of diminishing returns with some of the more esoteric (meaning expensive) models.

Another thing to consider is if you are looking to squeeze the best possible perfomance out of what you have (in both gear and talent) or trying to find some magical turd polish.

[John Roberts {JR}]

(Another) Dave Dermont wrote on Fri, 14 April 2006 14:21

I own one of the original (and now discontinued) Presonus Blue Tube preamps. It was sent to me as an evaluation sample for a review that was never published. I ended up buying it (at about half the prevailing street price) because it made a dandy stereo DI box, even if it does need power from a wall-wart. I used it for a lot of things, and since it was a review piece, I often set up an A/B of the same input with and without the preamp for comparison. However subtle, there were differences in the sound when using the preamp. "I" thought those differences were "better". I really dug it as a DI for Acoustic Guitars and Fiddles and such, and it never ever "sucked". This was using a $75.00-per-channel preamp with common $2K-ish mixers. I believe that you could very easily reach a point of diminishing returns with some of the more esoteric (meaning expensive) models. Another thing to consider is if you are looking to squeeze the best possible perfomance out of what you have (in both gear and talent) or trying to find some magical turd polish.

If and when Bink is ever crazy (bored) enough to do a preamp shoot out I'll be glad to give him a few tests. Since microphones vary so much more than preamps, one area rich to investigate is input termination. The 2k defacto standard input termination I've been using and touting for decades is not cast in stone and it's easy to imagine how variance from that could easily result in audible response shifts. In my experience for subtle differences the more expensive unit usually wins subjective comparisons.  

There are other areas to inspect but I won't waste bandwidth repeating myself, just now.  

JR

PS I still have about 100 ultra low noise transistors back in my lab that they don't make any more... So by definition if I ever make my uber-preamp it will be limited edition. That doesn't sound cheap so subjectively it'll sound good right ?

[Dave Dermont]

Back when every EV dealer suddenly became a Midas dealer, it was very apparent (to me, anyway) that all the floor sales people were indoctrinated into the 'Midas...it's about the preamps!' way of thinking. It gave them something to talk about, and a reason WHY the Venice cost twice as much as the comparable mixers in the store.

I dare ya... go into a store and ask to see a Midas Venice. Take note of how long it takes for the guy showing it to you to mention how great the preamps are. Just for sport, watch his head spin when you point out how stupid the aux arrangement is    

These are the same salespeople that will tell you the cheap mic with the higher output MUST be better...listen to how loud it is! or that a mixer's EQ is more "responsive" because the potentiometer taper has all the control mashed into the first 45 degrees of rotation

My Blue Tube also has the "hocus pocus" of having a tube in it. I would have probably never gone out to buy one, but after using it, I found that it was easily as good as the obiquitous active DI box that sells for the same amount of money, and gave me two channels. Getting it for half invoice was certainly the deal-maker.

I did not buy the Blue Tube because outboard preamps 'are better', or even for it's 'tube warmth'. I bought it because it was a versatile piece of gear that did what I needed it to do, and a bit more, did them well. Plus, carrying around my own tube preamp made me look cool.  

People looking to outboard preamps to be some kind of 'magic bullet' that will solve some sort of problem are probably looking in the wrong place.

This does not make me lust any less for a Midas XL42 or a Manley Vox Box of my very own. Now that would be cool, and being cool is what it's all about  

[Ivan Beaver]

I have had soundpeople (I do not use the term "engineer"especially in that regard) tell me that the reason that they cannot get the vocals to be heard is because I did not give them the "magic preamp" that they requested.  YEAH- like that is going to automatically lower the level of the kick and guitar.  If I barely hear the vocals, then is making them "warmer" really going to help? NOT!

Of course those are often the same people who complain that if they had a so and so console they could get a much better sound.  If they actually had it, they would end up doing more damage, due to the added control.  They couldn't mix their way out of a wet paper bag.  A quality instrument in the hands of an amateur, still sounds like an amateur.

People who are looking for a "magic" piece of technology to fix all their lack of skills are sorely mistaken.  Often times it is a mic. or a preamp or a console or an effect or a compressor and so forth.

I know a guy who was going to buy a VERY EXPENSIVE DI box in order to get rid of the hum in the bass guitar signal.  Upon investigation the hum was coming from the guitar itself-the bass player was using a speaker cable instead of an instrument cable because he couldn't get a regular guitar cable that long!!! Yeah a $2000 DI would fix that.  Whatever-----

[John Roberts {JR}]

Ivan Beaver wrote on Sat, 15 April 2006 20:44

People who are looking for a "magic" piece of technology to fix all their lack of skills are sorely mistaken.  Often times it is a mic. or a preamp or a console or an effect or a compressor and so forth.  Whatever-----

There is a HUGE market for "magic" products. While these are commonly sold to entry level customers with more dollars than sense, the sales pitch contains pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo with buzzwords like group delay thrown in for effect. The boxes usually just apply some boom-sizzle eq that sounds like an improvement when presented on the local guitar shack O' rama sales floor.

Consumers usually grow out of such illusions after trying to generate serious SPL with decent bandwidth... No amount of magic makes up for watts and boxes.... but there's always a new group of true believers coming along to take the place of converts.

So if you still want to get some magic, look to get your fix on Ebay where you can buy it (hardly used) for pennies on the dollar from those recently converted by the reality of making LIVE SOUND.

JR

 

[Tom Reid]

Quote:

What would be the benefits of this?

Different. Will it be any better than a GB preamp?  Depends on how many thousands you sink into an external set of preamps.

Like the others have said, fix it at the source i.e. the transducer that converts the acoustic sound into electron flow.  But you have the same dilemma there.  Mics in the same price range by different manufacturers will sound different. Occasionally there is a stand out piece like the M88 Andy just raves about.  

Once those waveforms are captured and converted, all we can do is alter their function, we can't 'polish' what wasn't captured.

I'm a happy bluetube owner too.  I use mine @ FOH on the money channel split even though it has a wallwart   .  Maybe this technique will appease your band leaders need to spend money.

Take the vocal send from snake, split with an XLR split.  Send one side of the split the the GB8 channel of choice, the other side to a preamp, then a compressor, then into the GB8 in a normal channel.  I usually keep these together like ch.15 and ch.16 for sanity   .
Assign the pre/comp split to one sub, assign split vocals to another.  Now you've got enough knobs, levers, and displays to impress the band leader and the capability of vocal alteration to satisfy his burgeoning producer tendencies.

If this $2K to $4K addition doesn't satisfy he needs to go to the next level, tell him all about digital boards/digital snakes.  That'll shut him up.

Really, tell us what microphones you're using and the community here could probably make a few suggestions for the better.