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[i0ushephf]

Well, I've been asking around a little, and the question I got back from asking about what kind of budget we could expect was this: "Is it broken?"

It seems that we won't get a new mixing console before this one has died completely. I almost hope the mixing console breaks during the middle of a sunday morning service... Just so that people know how bad it is.

Well it isn't broken, so I'll just have to find a time and place to short it...

[ericj]

Mac Kerr wrote on Mon, 04 October 2004 15:32

If you can lessen your needs slightly, you can have a PM5D-RH for around $65,000, which has 48 recallable mic pre's, or a PM5D with analog style preamps for around $50,000. You can add 48 recallable, remoteable pre's to the non RH for about $15,000, giving you a total of 96 mic pres, of which you can use 48 in any given scene. Actually you can use all inputs with mic pre's, but 8 will be 4 stereo inputs, and 8 more (the fx returns) will be 4 stereo inputs with no dynamics processors. The PM5D has 24 mix buses which can be either groups or aux, mono or stereo paired.

Thanks Mac for the very detailed response on the intricacies of the PM5D.  

We are a church currently beginning new construction and we are putting together the wishlist for the A/V/L equipment now.  I became sold on the Yamaha PM digital consoles back when I sat behind an engineer running a PM1D in a 7000 seat auditorium.  Knowing that our budget would *probably* not support purchasing the PM1D, I began looking into the PM5D.  You sound quite experienced with this board, so I thought I'd ask to clarify some things...

Your quote above says that you can use all inputs with the fully expanded mic pre's, but 16 of them will be stereo pairs, and the other 8 will be stereo pairs w/ no dynamics.  But you mention you can only use 48 per scene.  So if you had a PM5D fully loaded with external A/Ds, can you use 80 mono channels simultaneously with dynamics processing? (96-16)  Just trying to get a guage of total channels this board will run at once, as 48 isn't quite enough for us.

Next, you mentioned you can add 48 recallable, remoteable mic pre's to the non RH PM5D.  Are you saying the PM5D-RH doesn't support this expansion of additional recallable mic pre's?  Ideally, it'd be nice to have 80+ recallable mic pre's with the PM5D, but perhaps this is why the PM1D exists....


Thanks in advance!
Eric

[Mac Kerr]

ericj wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 12:38

snip Your quote above says that you can use all inputs with the fully expanded mic pre's, but 16 of them will be stereo pairs, and the other 8 will be stereo pairs w/ no dynamics.  But you mention you can only use 48 per scene.  So if you had a PM5D fully loaded with external A/Ds, can you use 80 mono channels simultaneously with dynamics processing? (96-16)  Just trying to get a guage of total channels this board will run at once, as 48 isn't quite enough for us. Next, you mentioned you can add 48 recallable, remoteable mic pre's to the non RH PM5D.  Are you saying the PM5D-RH doesn't support this expansion of additional recallable mic pre's?  Ideally, it'd be nice to have 80+ recallable mic pre's with the PM5D, but perhaps this is why the PM1D exists.... Thanks in advance! Eric

Last question first. Yes the RH supports the same expansion as the non-RH. Since there are only 4 slots, in order to get 48 (or 64) additional mic pre's you need to use 16 I/O digital cards which only run at 48k sample rate. To run at 96k means only 32 I/O channels in the 4 slots. I only mentioned the non-RH to show you could equal the capability of the RH and get more mic pre's for the same money another way.

As far as input capability, the console has 48 mono input control channels, 4 full stereo inputs, and 4 FX return inputs which have no dynamics control. You can patch any input connector to any input control channel. If you have 64 mic pres, you can patch them all at once. This of course leaves no channels for FX or any line level returns. The total number of control channels is 64. The PM5D is a mid line console. It is not intended to supplant the PM1D. If you need 80+ channels active at once you need a PM1D, or if your aux needs are 12 or less, maybe a DM2000.

Prices noted below are very rough.
PM1D - 112 input - 48 group/aux - 24 matrix - $125,000+
PM5D - 64 input - 24 group/aux - 8 matrix - $45,000+
DM2000 - 96 input - 8 group, 12 aux - 4 stereo matrix - $35,000+

The DM2000 rough price is based on 72 mic pres, 24 built in, 48 as 6 AD8HR 8 channel external remote control mic pre's. There are also 2 analog stereo tape returns, and 3 digital stereo returns. There are also no real DCA's on a DM2000.

Mac

[ericj]

Hey Mac-

Thanks a ton for the quick response.  I spent a good part of today scouring specs and I think the PM5D will work... We'll definitely want to go with the 6 AD8HRs on stage, especially for the ease of cabling back to the control area and remote control of the preamp params.

To be honest with you, one of the biggest selling points of the PM1D for me was the fact that you could run separate control surfaces off of the same engine for live, broadcast, and recording without having to mult everything out... very cool.

In my research today, I saw that the AD8HRs will do a limited version of that split, in that they have dual AES/EBU outs.  That will allow us to do live multitrack recording of worship services.  While that's not one of our current core requirements, it is in a future phase.  

Anyhow, we might be able to make the 48 channels work, since we can split off of the AD8HRs to another console (currently looking at a loaded DM2000.)  

You mention a fully loaded DM2000 would be $35k.  I came up with around $21k, including 3 MY16-AE's (input from the AD8HRs) and 3 MY16-AT's (outputs and inputs to the MTR.)   Were my price sources off?

Thanks again Mac, I appreciate your input!
Eric

[Mac Kerr]

ericj wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 01:55

In my research today, I saw that the AD8HRs will do a limited version of that split, in that they have dual AES/EBU outs.  That will allow us to do live multitrack recording of worship services.  While that's not one of our current core requirements, it is in a future phase.   Anyhow, we might be able to make the 48 channels work, since we can split off of the AD8HRs to another console (currently looking at a loaded DM2000.)   You mention a fully loaded DM2000 would be $35k.  I came up with around $21k, including 3 MY16-AE's (input from the AD8HRs) and 3 MY16-AT's (outputs and inputs to the MTR.)   Were my price sources off? Thanks again Mac, I appreciate your input! Eric

If you are using the digital split in the AD8HR you need to remember that only 1 of the consoles can control the preamp gain. This is also true with the PM1D. If in the middle of the show the "master" console makes a change in the preamp gain it will change the level in the other console without the operator knowing.

When you priced the loaded DM2000 at $21,000 did you include the 6 AD8HR's at $2000-$2200 each? That is another $12,000. As long as you have all those AES outputs lying around you may want to add a some DA converters to get more analog outputs.

Mac

[ericj]

Ahh, that was the discrepancy.  I already bundled the price of the 6 AD8HRs into the budget of the FOH/Auditorium price.  The DM2000/expansion cards was under the PostProd. budget.  Cool, we're on the same page then.

You're right about the gains only being controlled by one console.  I guess that setup would require a very thorough soundcheck to set gains beforehand, and communication over the clear-com from the FOH engineer to the Post engineer when gains were changed mid-performance.

Anyhow, I feel much more in-tune with the offerings of Yamaha now, and frankly, I'm really excited!  I enjoy seeing plans clarify... (plus, I'm really excited to get into a permanent building and not have to be the "mobile church" anymore.)

True too about the D/A additions for the outputs.  We just may do that, as we'll need to feed audio to a lot of different areas of the building (cryroom, lobby, cafe area, etc.)  We'll likely be using a sound distribution network for that though, and my initial idea was to use the matrix out for that mix (mixes?)... But we might be able to use the 24 mix channels instead, since we'll be using the Aviom monitoring system, including the YGDAI Aviom expansion card for foldback.  What would be more appropriate to use, matrix or mix, in this case?

One last question; all expansion cards/remote preamps aside, what is the cost difference between the normal and RH versions of the console?  

As always, thanks in advance for your detailed replies!
Eric

[Mac Kerr]

ericj wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 13:07

You're right about the gains only being controlled by one console.  I guess that setup would require a very thorough soundcheck to set gains beforehand, and communication over the clear-com from the FOH engineer to the Post engineer when gains were changed mid-performance.

Good communication among the soundmen will help, as will setting a standard of using the actual mic pre gain as little as possible. Once the gain is set, use the digital attenuators unless there is a real problem with the mic pre gain.

Quote:

True too about the D/A additions for the outputs.  We just may do that, as we'll need to feed audio to a lot of different areas of the building (cryroom, lobby, cafe area, etc.)  We'll likely be using a sound distribution network for that though, and my initial idea was to use the matrix out for that mix (mixes?)... But we might be able to use the 24 mix channels instead, since we'll be using the Aviom monitoring system, including the YGDAI Aviom expansion card for foldback.  What would be more appropriate to use, matrix or mix, in this case?

I would use the matrix for as many of these type of mixes as you can. It will help if you are also using groups as this will let you tailor the mixes to the matrix better. In my world 8 matrices is not a lot, I usually end up using all 8 matrices, and some aux mixes for this kind of utility mixes. Record mixes are usually off auxes as they are pre any group or stereo processing. Lobby feeds, ADA hard of hearing systems, Dressing room feeds, delays, underbalcony etc off matrix.

Quote:

One last question; all expansion cards/remote preamps aside, what is the cost difference between the normal and RH versions of the console?

List price difference is $17,000, YMMV. Talk to your dealer about real pricing.

Mac

[ericj]

Mac Kerr wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 11:47

Good communication among the soundmen will help, as will setting a standard of using the actual mic pre gain as little as possible. Once the gain is set, use the digital attenuators unless there is a real problem with the mic pre gain.

True enough.  We diligently try to set trims beforehand in a matter where they won't have to be touched for the rest of the performance.

Mac Kerr wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 11:47

I would use the matrix for as many of these type of mixes as you can. It will help if you are also using groups as this will let you tailor the mixes to the matrix better. In my world 8 matrices is not a lot, I usually end up using all 8 matrices, and some aux mixes for this kind of utility mixes. Record mixes are usually off auxes as they are pre any group or stereo processing. Lobby feeds, ADA hard of hearing systems, Dressing room feeds, delays, underbalcony etc off matrix.

If I understand the manual correctly, it looks like each mix (aux) output can be set pre or post though, right?  If that's the case, (and we're coming off of the AD8HR's secondary split for any recording, and using the Aviom system for foldback), then essentially we get 24 more matrix-like outputs if we set all 24 auxes as post-fade.  

If this configuration works like I think it does, it is a fabulous fit for our particular needs.  You're right about somewhat wasted digital outs and non-used 48 onboard pre's.  I'm not sure what we would use those for, but it's better to have too much than not enough I suppose.

Eric

[Mac Kerr]

ericj wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 17:48

If I understand the manual correctly, it looks like each mix (aux) output can be set pre or post though, right?  If that's the case, (and we're coming off of the AD8HR's secondary split for any recording, and using the Aviom system for foldback), then essentially we get 24 more matrix-like outputs if we set all 24 auxes as post-fade.

Yes, you can use the auxes that way. You will however still have to create a certain amount of mixes for the Aviom. It only has 16 inputs, and if you need a desk as big as a 5D you are using more than 16 sources. I am currently in preproduction on a show where we will be using Aviom for the 8 musicians in the band. We will be mixing mons for everyone else on a PM1D. Sometimes I think creating 16 mixes to go to the Aviom just so the musicians can set their own levels is going to be harder than just mixing the 8 mixes from the get-go. With a show that will eventually have close to 100 inputs, getting it down to 16 takes some thought. With regard to aux vs matrix, I just find it easier with utility mixes to only think about mixing 8 or 10 groups into a matrix rather than having to dial up 64 inputs into each mix. If you need more than 8 matrix out, there are several solutions ranging from the Yamaha DME64 to Soundweb, or a DM1000 to take up to 20 inputs and mix down to 8 auxes plus stereo. Anyway...it will certainly be easy for you to create as flexible a system as you need. Good luck with it.

Mac

[ericj]

 Yes, very true about the Aviom system.  The 16 channels are really a limitation, but we've made do with it.  We currently use the Aviom system from a board using about 28 channels.  We do all sorts of hodge-podge stuff to mix it together, including submixing onstage for the keyboard/turntablist, horn players, etc.  Although we still have to submix down to 16 on the Aviom, the musicians are much happier having separate control themselves.  

If only A-Net was 32 channels, it'd be a non-issue.  

Eric

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