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Author Topic: Digital mixer?  (Read 15115 times)

Phil Ouellette

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2004, 11:28:44 PM »

i0ushephf wrote on Wed, 06 October 2004 17:32

Does anyone here have any experience from a digital mixing console? It would be nice to hear about them from someone who really used them a lot.


I've got about 6 months time in on a maxed out Yamaha DM2000 (in a 1700 seat sanctuary).  I had a year in on the DM2000's predecessor (a pair of slaved Mackie D8B consoles, definitely not live audio friendly).  Plus I mixed our TV broadcast on three slaved Yamaha 01V's for several months.

From initial introduction to running the consoles took me about 3 services on the D8B's.  The 01V's had a very short learning curve (about a day).

The DM2000 was a bit more to digest (it does a whole lot more than either the D8Bs or the 01Vs ever dreamed of).  We were operating the DM2000 by ourselves after a 4 hour training class plus two services with the supplier running the console and two more with us running it and him hanging in the booth.  We do both high energy contemporary christian worship along with heavy duty theatrical productions.  The DM2000 has been a very good fit for us.

In my opinion a digital console is faster for a newby to get comfortable on than a comparable analog console (recall is your friend when experimenting).  I much prefer digital consoles to any of the analog consoles I've used (and that includes the Midas H3000 loaner we had for two months).

Got any specific questions about using the DM2000?

Phil
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i0ushephf

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2004, 08:28:24 PM »

So we were talking this through today in the audio group. we are probably going to keep the PM3K a little longer, one of the reasons is to see if any of the PM5d's will become popular (for second hand value) So we just keep cool for now. It will probably take a while to lobby for getting the budget, but one of the PM5 versions is probably the hottest pick today. Another option is the Midas Verona. It may be able to fill our needs. Of course I would like the DiGiCo live table but it costs more than my life is worth...  Shocked
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2004, 09:38:24 PM »

If you are waiting to see if the PM5D becomes popular your wait is over. Take a look at the Audio Auction site that advertises in the header of this board. You will see how many consoles Clair Bros is selling. They have ordered 60 PM5D's. That will make it a standard all by itself.

If you are unsure about getting into digital you can soften the blow with the regular version which has analog style preamps, and analog inserts.

Mac
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Mats Fagerkull

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2004, 05:12:19 AM »

I'm sorry but I just don't see the logic in this. IMO you are either underestimating or overestimating your needs. I mean, either you need something equivalent/better to a PM3000, which would mean Heritage series, Series Five, another (newer) PM series (Audient Aztek?) or go the digital road (Innovason, DigiCo, PM-digital). IMO if thinking cheaper analog I'd go for Series Four, MH4, ML5000 or X-VCA.

Midas Verona might have the name (and sound) but isn't close to the functionallity the previous consoles offers. In fact it seems like it has *less* functionallity than a GL4000! It doesn't make any sense to me that you are considering this as a serious option.

If I was a memeber of the churchboard and someone told me that we can get the work done at an expense of 250.000 SEK (30-35k USD)instead of 1M SEK (120-150k USD).........guess what Shocked

Personally I *do* think you would be well sereved by a PM5D, and I think you should go digital, that's the future. But IMO you still need a lot of work to convince the people with powers (money).

/ mats
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2004, 10:32:30 AM »

I also happen to think the innovason might serve them better than a pm5d, just because it has more routable inputs. You can add a whole bunch of cards locally / at stage and then route what you need depending on when you need, something that (to my understanding) the pm5d doesn't have as much of.

Karl P

Edit: Sy40, of course the 80 would be good tooo <g>.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2004, 02:11:21 PM »

Karl P wrote on Sat, 09 October 2004 10:32

I also happen to think the innovason might serve them better than a pm5d, just because it has more routable inputs. You can add a whole bunch of cards locally / at stage and then route what you need depending on when you need, something that (to my understanding) the pm5d doesn't have as much of.

Karl P

Edit: Sy40, of course the 80 would be good tooo <g>.
Karl, I don't quite understand what you mean by "more routable inputs". The inputs of the PM5D are fully routable to any input control fader. There are standard 48 analog mono inputs, 6 analog stereo inputs (12 FXLR), and 3 digital stereo inputs (2 AES, 1 SPDIF). Any of these input connections can be assigned to any of 48 mono control faders, or 8 stereo control faders. Four of the stereo control faders do not have dynamics processors as they were intended as fx returns, they are however fully patchable input channels. The output connectors however are not fully patchable. The 24 mix out connectors can only be those 24 mixes, and the same for the 8 matrix outs. In order to have more patchable input connections, up to 64 additional channels, or patchable output connections you need to expand the system via the 4 expansion slots. At 48KHz sampling rate these can be 16 channel slots, providing 16 more ins and 16 more outs for each of 4 slots. At 96KHz they are 8 channel slots. To fully realize the ins and outs requires external AD/DA converters as the card loaded internal converters are input or output only.

Mac
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2004, 07:42:51 PM »

Sorry, slight misuse of terms here. When I said routable, I meant patachable. To my understanding the sy40 has the capability to talk to more patachable inputs than the pm5d, and can be more flexible in how it gives them to you (In certain church situations, the more patchable channels, the better). I could be wrong about this, but here is how it has been explained to me.

You have 6 slots in the unit itself, each slot can take a card that has 8 channels of the type of your choosing (mic/line in - line out - line out with dynamics - digital in - digital out - digital out with dynamics). You can also have a stagebox as well with 8 additional slots. Any of these inputs and outputs can be routed to any of the "active surface inputs" (of which there are 48 mono or stereo in the sy40) and the same goes for the outputs, of which there can be up to 48 physical outputs with 26 + 2 busses driving them (in the sy40). Of course scenes can be made that incorporate your routing preferences to decide what is doing what in any given scene.

The only difference between the Sy40 and the Sy80 (other than size and fader count) is that it can handle yet another stage box, up to 80 "surface inputs" and has 48 mix busses.

The sy40 (to me) just feels like one of the nicer mediumish digital consoles, also nice that you can (if you so wish) switch out a 40 for a 80 and keep all your investment in i/o.

There could be something I am missing (if so, please do tell) But the innovason also has some nice things like there xfad stuff (hard thing to explain - see it in action.)

The pm5d is great - i have spent some time behind it, But (assuming my understanding is right) if your in a situation where you would like more patchable inputs, I felt the sy40 would be a better investment for a HOW if you can afford the console plus the stage box (which together with i/o do cost more than the 5d).


YMMV,

Karl P
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2004, 09:01:38 PM »

A PM5D can have a maximum of 130 fully patchable, on a scene by scene basis, input connections, and 70 fully patchable output connections, plus the standard 24 mix, 8 matrix, 2 stereo, cue and monitor outputs which are not patchable. These are assignable to 48 mono and 8 stereo control channels. The xfade feature of the InovaSON is a powerful feature, but it is not a concept or mixing style that will translate to other consoles as it is unique to the InovaSON. The Sys40 and Sys80 are powerful consoles, and earlier in this thread I recommended considering them. The OP was concerned that guest engineers, and church volunteers would be uncomfortable with a digital console. I feel that today's digital consoles offer too much upside to not consider, and I also feel that the PM5D is the most easily approachable console for someone with only analog experience.

Mac
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2004, 12:18:26 AM »

This is interesting, I talked with one of Yamaha's techs about this directly and he started saying that the console could patch to 70 "ish" inputs and 30ish outputs. It didn't make a ton of sense, but thats what he said (and I figured it was a decision to put some distance between it and 1d).

Personally, I felt it easier to sit down to the sy40 than to the 5d, but both are quite easy to use and I could see how some people would find one over the other easier. In all events, thank you for the insight on the 5d - a more expandable console than i was initially led to believe (and maybe some of yamahas reps realize?).

In any case, Digital DOES offer to much to be overlooked these days, and the major digital players are all putting out good products.

Karl P
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Phillip Graham

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Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2004, 11:19:09 AM »

Karl P wrote on Sun, 10 October 2004 00:18

This is interesting, I talked with one of Yamaha's techs about this directly and he started saying that the console could patch to 70 "ish" inputs and 30ish outputs. It didn't make a ton of sense, but thats what he said (and I figured it was a decision to put some distance between it and 1d).

In any case, Digital DOES offer to much to be overlooked these days, and the major digital players are all putting out good products.

Karl P


Hey Karl,

I have looked over Mac's suggestions w/ the PM5d, and the standard version + input card methodology he suggests seems to be without flaw.

Another consideration is that I personally know of 3 Innovason's that have taken a dump on people while mixing, and no yamahas.
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Phill Graham

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Department of Materials Science and Engineering

The Georgia Institute of Technology

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Digital mixer?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2004, 11:19:09 AM »


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