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Author Topic: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30  (Read 7500 times)

Randy Smith

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Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« on: March 21, 2006, 11:35:52 am »

I need more low end extension.

My main concern is sound QUALITY.
A very close second to that is DEEP bass. (synthesizer and large scale surround sound for movies.)


I have been thinking of going with Labs. (only one per side) The size and weight is my only concern but will grunt harder for perfection, also it should be in groups of 4+.

If I go with the Tubas I will put two per side and build the slim 24 inch wide version. I just don’t know which one would sound better. Even with the T36 I have the choice of vertical or horizontal baffle. (I guess that makes four to choose from)

Anyone with experience with these PLEASE I need some real world wisdom. I have not yet been able to hear either of these and without that hands-on type of knowledge it is very hard to make a good decision.

If the LABS are far superior even as a single I will definitely go that way.

Please tell me your impression of how they sound and which of the four would be the best choice.(I am also open to suggestions if you know of something better suited)

Mostly I do Contemporary Gospel to light rock and some 70s mostly for youth groups (youth rally’s and such) and young adults. Most are 500 to 1000 people while I have done some 5000 with the bigger ones usually outside.

Thanks
Randy Smith
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bgavin (Bruce Gavin)

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2006, 05:20:36 pm »

The 24" slim Tuba36 is a pretty small mouth area for your stated needs.  This configuration does not have sufficient mouth area to go as far down as you require.

Splitting them (LABS or Tubas) on either side of stage defeats the advantage of clustering them together for a collective increase in mouth area.

You specify surround sound movies, and this tells me you need a horn with a long path and low Fc.  The LAB horn is significantly longer than the T36, and has a lower reach with sufficient mouth area.
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Randy Smith

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 11:14:52 pm »

If I recognize your name right I believe you have both.

If  so how do they compare one for one sound quality wise?

If you had to chose one – which would it be and why?

P.S. The movie part is a hardly ever event but I would like to make it as good as I possibly can. (either one will waaaayy out do what I have now!)

Thanks for your response
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peter.golde

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2006, 09:06:26 pm »

"The LAB horn is significantly longer than the T36, and has a lower reach with sufficient mouth area."

?

I didnt think the Lab had a significantly longer path than the Tuba36.
I can probably build 4 Tuba 36's for the same price as 2 Labs, and I dont think the Labs will go any lower. What is your experience?
I know how the Labs sound, they don't kill down low unless corner loaded or used in groups of 2 or more. The Tuba's have a different sound because of the bandpass effect, but that makes them more useful with less than optimal mouth area, one or two per side. I know I would much rather have 2 24" wide Tuba30's than a single Lab, but I am curious how 4 Tuba36's in a group would sound. I know the Tuba36 with a Horizontal baffle would be easier and cheaper to build than a Lab. I am putting together an outdoor rig for Live or DJ use, and am leaning toward the T36's.
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Dave Rickard

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2006, 12:15:11 am »

Try contacting Gary Perrett.  Search for his name here and on Bill's forum.  He has experience with Labs and certain Tubas.

Dave
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Dave
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Randy Smith

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2006, 06:51:46 am »

I did PM him about a week ago, but no reply.
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Randy Smith

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2006, 07:04:58 am »

The way I priced them the Lab will cost about $12.00 more than the T36/24"

The drives for Lab are $146 each and need two = $292.00
The (recommended)driver for T36/24" wide is $282.00

best I can tell both take about 3 - 4 X 8 sheets although the t36 uses some of it 1/2". The best price I can find it is only one dollar different in price.


At first, I thought the same as you -- build two for the price of one. That made the decision easier. Now that they are the same price I don't know which to build.


PLEASE SOMEONE HELP

Thanks
Randy Smith
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Chris Coleman 2

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2006, 07:23:23 pm »

My opinion:

If you can listen to them both side by side, that would be the best.

Second best, read the reviews of the sub shootout that was held within the last year. I don't recall if BOTH the LAB AND the tuba were there.. but at least you will get opinions of whichever DIY sub(s) were there.

Third best, I would go off the reputation and testing methods of the designers. LAB is designed by a very renowned name in the sub industry, was tested and verified with industry standard audio spectrum sweep software, and is a touring grade sub, as in Metallica or Rod Stewart or Britney Spears.  Tuba is meant for a 4-piece garage band that has to roadie their own PA so it is designed to be as light as possible while still providing performance, but the designer does not use industry standard tools to test frequency response etc, instead he prefers to manually gather data points on the frequency curve... so for this reason, it is not considered to be verified as a truly touring grade sub.

If the cost is equal, build two LABs and put them front and center of the stage.. coupling the mouths of the horn for increased bass extension.
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peter.golde

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2006, 11:04:05 pm »

I would put my pair of Tuba30s up against any box on the planet of equal size, including a single Lab. The only ones that would give it any competetion would probably be someones DIY, I am not sure if Danley has a box that small, but if he does, it would be interesting.
The only standard in "the industry", is not being totally honest about specs, as Mr. Fitzmaurice is. If you have the time and some woodworking skills, they are well worth it, as a lot of people are finding out.
The Tuba36 can be built for less than a Lab, no aluminum plates required, most of the path length and bracing is 1/2"BB, and a wide variety of drivers work well in this design.
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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2006, 11:33:56 pm »

     I'd go with a pair of labs.  Or a Quartet.

    I'm sure the tubas are reasonable but I don't think their linearity or extension are that great.

    I find this claim questionable:

Quote:

a wide variety of drivers work well in this design.


    I'm sure my feet would work and fit in many different sized shoes too but certainly not well.  I need a size 10D with arch support. A flat foot size 10D would be murder on my feet.

     The shoe needs to be tailored to fit the foot for best, comfort fit and performance.  And the same goes for your speaker enclosure.  Build the enclosure around the speakers needs.  Though there certainly is a trend to build the box to some size needs then hope you can find a driver to suit it.

    what ever

   I've been bitten by the sawdust bug.  I say you should seek the best balance between cost efficiency, performance and practicality.  Unless you're like me and you just don't care and would give your first born for the most excesive impractical Sub woofer imaginable all in the name of more High spl LF extension.  

Antone-


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Chris Coleman 2

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2006, 12:28:51 pm »

Peter Golde:
Quote:

I would put my pair of Tuba30s up against any box on the planet of equal size, including a single Lab.


You're in arizona??  It would be really cool if you would do a shootout between your pair of Tuba30's and a nearby guy's LAB. Maybe there's guys in LA or even in Arizona.  Record the spectrum sweep data and do some A/B of some different music styles... outside in the desert would be perfect.. 100W at 10meters.. that would rock.. and help other guys here to decide what to build.

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peter.golde

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2006, 11:15:14 am »

I ran a pair of Labs outdoors, half space, I ran DR250's on top, very efficient horn loaded design. The sound was balanced with recorded music, I think we played some Tool at full power. The 250 needed everything from the pair of Labs. I know with 4 Labs the output is much greater, but a pair is less impresssive outdoors. Still better than a pair of dual 18's, more powerful and much cleaner with better extension.
When I mentioned wide variety of drivers for the Tuba36, I mean to say there are a few very important parameters that matter, Fs, Xmax, Xmech, Bl, the rest are less important and make little or no difference. This allows me to get the same performance from a pair of 15" Audiopile drivers as the Emminence Magnum, up to a point, the Magnum will be take much more abuse, but you pay three times the price. Depends totally on your application.

If I were building more Labs for heavy outdoor use, I would use a minimum of 4.
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peter.golde

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2006, 11:21:23 am »

I am all for it. I dont have the software and mics yet to do this kind of testing, hope to very soon.
If anyone in the area is interested, I am providing for an outdoor DJ event on April 29th in Chandler,AZ using a pair of Tuba30's powered by a Peavey 4080Hz, and a pair of DR250 tops powered by an EV P1250.


http://www.nightowlent.com/mainmenu.html

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"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer" - Frank Zappa

Chris Coleman 2

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2006, 02:00:01 pm »

peter.golde

a pair of DR250 tops


Did you build those dr250's?  

Why did you decide to go with them versus the dr280's or dr300's ??

peter.golde

I ran a pair of Labs outdoors, half space, I ran DR250's on top, very efficient horn loaded design. The sound was balanced with recorded music, I think we played some Tool at full power. The 250 needed everything from the pair of Labs.


Do you think the dr280's or dr300's would have easily overwhelmed the pair of LABs ??
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peter.golde

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2006, 09:41:16 pm »

Did you build those dr250's?
Yes I was on the builders list for Bill Fitzmaurice before I moved to AZ.

Why did you decide to go with them versus the dr280's or dr300's ??
The 280 and 300 were not yet available

Do you think the dr280's or dr300's would have easily overwhelmed the pair of LABs ??
No, the 280 has similar output to the 250, but has a larger mouth area, so it loads better down lower. The 300 is a different animal, horn loads to 80Hz and narrower dispersion, like 60 deg vs the 250 at 120 deg. The DR boxes have amazing midbass punch and clarity. They will not outrun a pair of Labs (assuming you have a few kw per Lab available), but will combine nicely.
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Chris Coleman 2

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2006, 09:39:54 am »

peter.golde

No, the 280 has similar output to the 250, but has a larger mouth area, so it loads better down lower. The 300 is a different animal, horn loads to 80Hz and narrower dispersion, like 60 deg vs the 250 at 120 deg. The DR boxes have amazing midbass punch and clarity. They will not outrun a pair of Labs (assuming you have a few kw per Lab available), but will combine nicely.


Which DR would you build if you were building them today to go with your subs ??

And... which other DIY mid/high box, apart from the DR series, would you consider building ??

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peter.golde

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2006, 11:18:03 am »

There aren't many boxes horn loaded from 80Hz to over 800Hz. Walt's XTRO seems expensive and a complex build. I have been playing with hornresp with ideas about a dual 10 or 12 horn box for that range and a DDS horn on top with a B&C Driver. The box ends up pretty large, been done before, not very practical. Danley has got the shit, his boxes are almost impossible in DIY approach, the xovers and physical placement of drivers and holes are very complex. The DR300 is a real bang for the buck horn, even as a midbass, and is very portable relative to it's performance.
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Craig Leerman

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2006, 07:39:47 pm »

Quote:

I would put my pair of Tuba30s up against any box on the planet of equal size, including a single Lab. The only ones that would give it any competetion would probably be someones DIY, I am not sure if Danley has a box that small, but if he does, it would be interesting.



Danley has a few small boxes in their product line already, and some more coming soon.

Their LAB SIZE touring box is the TH-115. I have heard 4 of these together and they are fantastic!  Singly, they are conservativly rated from 28 - 280 Hz @ -10.  

In the "small" range, Danley's TH-112 is only 38" H, 18" W, and 30" D.

 http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/downloads/Danley_TH-112_Spec_ Sheet.pdf

In the "VERY SMALL" range the TH-28 is only 20.5" H, 30.5" W, and 11" D. There is a relocatable output port so you can use the sub standing up, or laying down for only an 11" high unit!

 http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/downloads/Danley_TH-28_Spec_S heet.pdf

In addition, I have been told that they have a new smaller lower cost single 15" subwoofer that will be introduced at the next trade show they will be participating in.  Its supposed to be a little smaller than the TH-112.   No specs are on their site yet.
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Craig Leerman

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Re: Which ones to build? 2-LABhorn, 4-Tuba36, or 4-Tuba30
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2006, 07:58:56 pm »

Quote:

The way I priced them the Lab will cost about $12.00 more than the T36/24"

The drives for Lab are $146 each and need two = $292.00
The (recommended)driver for T36/24" wide is $282.00

best I can tell both take about 3 - 4 X 8 sheets although the t36 uses some of it 1/2". The best price I can find it is only one dollar different in price.


At first, I thought the same as you -- build two for the price of one. That made the decision easier. Now that they are the same price I don't know which to build.



You need to recalculate a little.

First, A Lab is designed to be build from 3/4 BALTIC TYPE VOID FREE BIRCH, not standard plywood. Baltic Birch does not usually come in 4X8 sheets, but instead comes in 5X5 sheets. To build a lab will require about 6-7 sheets depending on how well you layout the job.  Plywood prices fluctuate, and are different in many parts of the country.  But on average,  you will pay WAY MORE for a 5X5 sheet of BALTIC than you will for a 4X8 sheet of GOOD PLYWOOD from a lumberyard/home center.

Second, the LAB has to use heavy but thin SIDE PLATE COVERS. The original design called for Aluminum plates, but some folks have used other materials. 4 Aluminum plates cut to size can run a few hundred bucks.

Last, the LAB is harder to build!  Even experienced woodworkers have posted on here about how hard it is to layout and build the throat modules.  If you figure in your time or the cost of your time, the LAB will take significantly more time to build than a Tuba.

When you factor in all the real costs, you can basically get 2 Tubas for the price of 1 LAB SUB.

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I'm so old, when I was doing FOH for Tommy Dorsey, to balance out the horn section I would slide their chairs downstage and upstage to mix!


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