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Author Topic: Cerwinvega Vs Labsub  (Read 39562 times)

sheldon harris

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Re: Cerwinvega Vs Labsub = Yugo vs Mercedes Benz
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2006, 11:31:58 AM »

very well said.

i too did the "dj thing" to finance just about everything until i started teaching.

those were the days when i made the most money hands down.
the system rentals alone to other djs were more per month than my regular job! (ironically,my sub of choice for rental and use was cerwin vega earthquakes  Laughing )
i can safely say,they are good for what they can do. but when compared to a well designed sub horn or even a good vented box of comparable size, they would be the underdog. you can only know how good or not so good they are until your do an A/B with another sub. which i did, and as a result i went on a buying rampage trying to replace the woofers inside with "better drivers". back then i could afford it.

their seem to be some amazement on the part of some people of how much money djs can actually make, my partner and i made a deal with this upscale restaurant, ("on weekends we come in play some cool dinner music your guests can dance a Little after dinner, when the clock hits 11:00 you close the kitchen down, open up the bar and begin selling your drinks. we will  charge $5.00 per head (they had nothing to lose) if the people come, you make your money at the bar, we make ours at the door you dont have to pay us anything.
one year later,contract was signed cover charge went up to $10.00 bucks $20.00 on special nights. Fridays and Saturdays 400 plus people each night, minimum.!
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The things we would do in the quest to attain the highest Levels of Sound! the Pressure that is!

Nick Ozanich

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Re: Cerwinvega Vs Labsub
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2006, 08:48:01 PM »

Darin, I built my 4 Labs with a circular saw, framing staple gun w/2.5" staples and a buttload of Liquid nails. Its the best 1600$ subwoofer array In existance. I didnt use aluminum or much birch plywood (half a sheet per box) each box was around 100$ after I added 5" casters and 350# bathroom bars for handles. I would be happy to give a few tips on how to do a flat broke construction of these badboys. They are not pretty and they are heavier and wont handle as much as the aluminum/birch ones but I figure I saved 100-200$ per box. I also like to think the extra thickness helps with the 30hz range.
Tom is a saint for giving us this speaker. I have built many dozens of subwoofers and these are easily the best of all three worlds. Their are other subwoofers that are louder or cleaner or lower but 4 Labsubs are 90% off all three and for the size and cost are beyond compare. There are not to many perfect things in this world but one of them is being able to build 4 labs for under 2000$ I think many here would agree. Good luck! Nick
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Tim Duffin

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horns just aint that cool anymore
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2006, 03:46:59 AM »

I would love to inflict Car audio SPL to pro-sound guys that think they know the definition of bass.  Nothing is like sitting in a car reinforced with 2x4 square tube steel and bulletproof windows that hits 170Db at 35Hz and can rip apart a phone book in two seconds.  (shortly afterward you have to roll little balls of blood mixed with wax from your ears)

On the serious note, I am not all that impressed with cerwin vega subs, bassmax anything, labsubs or servodrive BT7's.  While they may seem cool on paper I think that the whole "horn loaded subs are louder" crap needs to be abolished.  I believe that statement may have been true in the 70's when front loaded speakers were weak, but not anymore. Nowadays, the game is all about power, not efficiency.  If a speaker is less efficient, just keep throwing more and more power at it until it does what you want.  IF it blows, just redesign the woofer to handle even MORE power to literally overpower physics with brute force.  I can see 8000watts per 18" front loaded driver being common in the next few years while horn loaded stuff just becomes a fad that was popular these days.

T

Pascal Pincosy

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Re: horns just aint that cool anymore
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2006, 06:11:41 AM »

The problem with your solution Tim, is that you will only gain 3 dB (in a perfect world) from doubling the wattage into a driver. So that nice front-loaded 1000 watt 18" sub you have will only gain 9 dB (in a perfect world) when upgraded to handle 8000 watts. This is assuming that you're able to design a driver that can handle 8000 watts without burning to a crisp, or ripping itself into shreds, while presenting the same efficiency as the 1000 watt driver. Good luck!  Laughing

On the other hand, a horn-loaded sub is just more efficient: A good horn has 107 dB sensitivity compared to 99 dB from your JBL's. The horn has an 8 dB head start on you. So even with your magical 8000 watt drivers, you will only be (in a perfect world) 1 dB louder than a horn-loaded sub with a 1000 watt power handling capacity.  Rolling Eyes

BTW Tim, I won't be at the Love Parade/Fest in SF this year as I'm busy with a festival that weekend, but I'm still down to hold a shootout between your JBL's and my Bassmaxx. Name the time and place and I'll be there with a calibrated SMAART system and some speakers. Loser buys the beer.
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peter.golde

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Re: horns just aint that cool anymore
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2006, 01:32:17 PM »

If you want car audio levels in pro sound, stick your head inside a pro sound box, maybe if it fits, cram it inside the compression chamber of a Labsub and pump 1000 watts of lf into it Laughing
There is the law of diminishing returns for powering and stacking reflex boxes, horns deliver the sound so much more efficiently.
If someone creates your magical driver, someone else will put it in a horn and get cleaner more powerful sound from it.  Laughing
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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: horns are still very cool
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2006, 03:02:54 PM »

     Well I'm sure those people you see standing a couple of inches away from subwoofers at shows share your desire to be assaulted with Hazzardous levels of Bass.

   I have yet to see a pro audio even't being held in in the cab of an acura but I'm sure the tickets must be pricey to offset the limited audience capacity.  

    Does the band or the DJ stand on the Hood of the car?  Do the participants sign any wrongful death wavers?

    It would take a lot more than subwoofers that can handle lots of power to acheive the SPLS of a preasurized car cab.  If you have a massive High XMAX motor that can handle 8000 Watts with a sensitivity of say 84dB (With all of the mass to make a true High Xmax sub with that much power disipation you probably wont get much more sensitive) you would only get 123dB out of the thing if it had no thermal compresion which it will!  Remember that 4 BT7's can get 142dB @ 1600Watts @ 30HZ.
With 4 of your super sub drivers with 32000 Watts you might get 134dB @ 1 meter.

    Again the arument has been Dirrect radiators for smaller venues and horns for larger venues due to their distance attenuation characteristics.

Antone-
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Tim Duffin

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Re: horns just aint that cool anymore
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2006, 04:16:48 PM »

That sucks!

I thought for sure that you would be at the love parade to hear the front loaded subs which can't possibly compete with horn loaded designs...... Laughing  I really wanted you to hear how much louder an array of front loaders is in REAL LIFE than horn loaded subs-- ya, I know you are going to say "its all distortion, the phase angle is off etc..." but it really don't sound as bad in real life as you think.  For what its worth,  4 Bassmaxx woofers attempt to mimic the power of 4 servodrive BT7 (which I have owned), which attempts to mimic the power of 4 modern Dual 18" subs.  I would take the 4 dual 18"s anyday.

In all actuality, there is no problem with my idea-- I have already started designing a dual 18" sub that handles 10000 watts RMS which can be used for pro audio.  The drivers already exist and have much more xmax and BL than you think-- (although they are heavy and have 4 voice coils each).  Ill let you listen to one as soon as I can find a material that can handle 9 horsepower without self destructing.


T

Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: horns just aint that cool anymore
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2006, 09:11:22 PM »

     Just for clarification, they are compared to 9 Dual 18 Cabs.  Not 4 Dual 18Cabs.  I'm not sure what You mean by mimic the power of.

    They certainly exceed the SPL of 9 of a cluster of most Dual 18 Cabs down below 50Hz.

  Tim, why don't you give me a link to your super subwoofers  We'll see how many it takes at what power to equal the output of 4 BT7's.

    Its all about application and practicality.  My BS-212's (124dB @ 30Hz a pair @ 1600W) seem to work great for smaller venues where  The BT7's simply wouldn't fit.  And they go a little lower,  They're so clean and free of cone breakup that the distorted bass drum sound on snoop dogs beautiful sounds like garbage.  But I guess that sound farts out of Cerwin Vegas really nicely.

     But The BS-212's would take an impractical amount to achieve the SPL's required at large outdoor events.

    Although I don't like the idea of putting a hornloaded sub on a float Just due to the fact that they really rely on 1/2 space loading and putting them on a truck bed Removes the drivers from significant ground coupling especially in the punch ranges.

Antone-

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: horns just aint that cool anymore
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2006, 09:26:32 PM »

Bragging about how much power you can apply is like bragging about how pour gas mileage your car gets.  It is more about how fast it goes (or loud as the case may be).

When you start to apply huge amount of power (let's assume the driver will actually take it), you will have extra distortion due to the excursion, have to purchase larger (read more expensive) power amps, extra AC power distros to deliver them the power they need, extra heat all the way around and so forth.

Have you listened to some of the "newer" versions of properly designed horns?  Not just some horn cabinets with any old driver stuck in them.  They work best with the driver they were designed around.  There are some interesting new developements in "horn design" lately.

You cannot even begin to compare loudspeakers operated outside with those that are basically inside of a sealed cabinet themselves (car audio).  In that case you are simply changing the pressure inside the vehicle, NOT providing sound to a large number of people.  Let's take your "super dupper" 170dB car stereo and put it outside and run a band through it and see what happens-or at least not for long.
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Tim Duffin

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Re: horns just aint that cool anymore
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2006, 02:42:35 AM »

for clarification...

I was not ever suggesting that one use an SPL car for PA use.  I simply wanted some of the PA guys to experience bass so strong that it can hurt you and crush your lungs if you are not careful.  I would still use PA equipment for PA-- excepting of course if I decided to use a car audio woofer in a custom designed box (by me of course Very Happy ) to get the sound I want.

T
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