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Author Topic: Main speakers in a small sanctuary  (Read 7813 times)

Daniel

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Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« on: September 26, 2004, 06:32:14 pm »

Hi,

I need some suggestions on main speakers for a church sanctuary.  The seating area is a rectangle, 34 feet wide by 60 feet deep.  The pews are padded, seat and back, and are in two sections, one on either side with a center isle.  The ceiling is flat, approximately 13 feet high at the front.  The floor is carpeted and  slopes up to the back so the ceiling is lower in the back, just over 9 feet.  The pulpit and choir area is pushed out into a newer addition at the front.  Currently, the main speakers are on either side of the sanctuary, mounted in the front wall.  Since they are to the side, but behind the pulpit there is always some trouble with feedback.  Can you believe they were also wired with Romex (house wire)?  I want to move them out in front of the pulpit nearer the seating area and replace the Romex.  The current speakers are Peavey, not sure the model, with a Horn and a 12 or 15, but not appropriate for exposed mounting.  A center array will not look good because of the low ceiling height.  Right now I am considering mounting two Yorkville C2890 cabinets on the flat ceiling just before the first row of pews and centering each cabinet on the center of each section of pews. Does anyone have any comments on this idea?  Will the Yorkville's have enough "throw" to reach the back?  My other concern is will I have enough bass for the occasional accompaniment tracks or more contemporary music.  One idea is to try the C2890's for now and possibly add a sub-woofer later if needed.  If this doesn't work out, I have also considered a pair of Peavey Sanctuary Series SSE 12's mount on the side walls at the front of the seating area.  What does everyone think?  By the way, I am trying to keep the speakers under $1000.  Thanks in advance!index.php/fa/545/0/
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john abney

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2004, 10:58:46 pm »

hi Daniel,

Nice looking room. Is feedback the only problem? In increasing order of complexity and cost: Try angling the existing speakers so that they face a little more toward the side walls (if that's possible). If you have a cardioid mike at the pulpit, try a hyper-cardioid instead. Might make it better, might make it worse. Do a little more research and learn the exact model of the Peavey speakers. Then find out the horizontal dispersion. A speaker with a narrower pattern may work - even in the same location. Failing that, a three-sided 'bumpout' (sort of like an old-fashioned bay window on a townhouse) on each side might give you just enough forward distance to avoid feedback at moderate levels. It could also add some architectural interest to the room without looking techno. You could experiment during the week using scaffolding. If you've got a good, willing, carpenter in the church, building such a bumpout shouldn't cost anywhere close to a thousand dollars.

You've not said whether the system sounds good. If it does, why not work with what you've got. A thousand dollars for a pair of loudspeakers isn't going to get you a lot of oomph over the full 20Hz to 20kHz range. Of course you could consider keeping the Peaveys and using them as subs, but you'd need another amp and a delay for the new top end.

As for the Romex, I'm not horrified at all, but having wired some older Bag End subs internally with something similar (but much more expensive - audiophile stuff dontcha know) I learned my lesson. Solid wire can break from too much vibration. I agree, you should replace the Romex.
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Tom Bennett

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2004, 01:02:53 am »

Hi Daniel,

A picture is worth a thousand words, good picture.

The placement of those speakers looks more appropriate for an organ than for the mains, not good.  Have you thought about using these for the organ, if you have it?  From the apparent distance, I would not try a bumpout, too far to go.

If you ceiling-center speakers on each row, you may have some shading from the light fixtures, which might not make for good mixing, presumably from the back.

The other option would be mounting the speakers on the side walls, and angling them in so they aimed at about the back center.

The important thing here would be to keep direct sound from hitting the walls or ceiling, which requires a narrower pattern, no more than 60 degrees horizontal by 40 degrees vertical.  Speaker "throw" is essentially related to the narrowness of the pattern, the narrower the pattern the further the apparent "throw".

Subs could possibly be placed on the floor around the corners of the walls by the front pews, maybe build a nice box with colored grill to hide the subs in.  Or get subs that are already painted the appropriate color.

I recommend the use of aux fed subs, to keep the vocals out of the subs to avoid boominess. See the study hall for an article on it.  If you use subs, then you would not need a speaker with 15's in them, 12's should be good, possibly even 10's.

I do not know anything about the models you stated and I have not heard them, so I will not say anything about them.  I am giving these guidelines to help you make a more informed decision.  On any speaker you like, you should try to demo them in the room, even try them for a service.

If you mount/hang the speakers yourself, do an overkill job, use load rated brackets and hardware, everything bolted to load rated  support points.  If you don't and they fall, you could kill somebody.  If you have any doubts, repeat, any doubts about doing this, get a pro to do it.

I hope this helps.

Tom Bennett
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Tom Young

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2004, 06:04:10 am »

Your proposed positions make sense, however it is very likely that in order to be loud enough at the back it will be too loud up front. Also, you will likely miss the first row or 2 in order to cover the rear unless you happen to use ldpskrs with vertical coverage greater than 60-degrees.

An alternative approach would be to use the 2 ldspkrs up front as you mentioned and put up some small fill ldspkrs 1/2 to 2/3 of the way back.  The front/primary ldspkrs would be aimed down more and would not need to be cranked as much.  The fill ldspkrs could be EV Sx80's (8" 2-way), or the like. They would, of course, need to be aligned to the primary ldspkrs.

There are other devices/designs I would consider but they would cost more.

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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Daniel

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2004, 10:27:01 am »

Thanks for all the replies so far.  We may doing some other upgrades to the audio/visual system and while they are in the mood I would like to do something about the speaker placement.  The mains are just too far behind the pulpit for a bump out to help much.  We have tried different angles already.  I think getting the speakers out closer to the congregation and in front of the pulpit area has got to be the best solution.  
The Yorkville I was looking at is a low profile speaker with a pair of 8" woofers and a 1" tweeter with a 30 x 90 horn that can be rotated for horizontal or vertical installation. http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5& id=223 I think this is about as big as I can go on our low ceiling and not look bad.  I don't know if these will give enough bass.  If I go with a more conventional cabinet with a horn and a 12" on the side walls, how high should I mount them?  Currently there are a couple of small fill speakers on the ceiling about 3/4 of the way back, Peavey Impulse 6's, which have a 5 1/4" woofer and a 1" soft dome tweeter.  These do not have any delay on them but they should, correct? I was hoping to eliminate these, trying to keep things simple. Thanks again.
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Tom Young

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2004, 08:34:20 pm »

You need to enlist the services of a professional when it comes to hanging heavy objects like loudspeakers.  The building structure, the loudspeakers and the rigging hardware all need to be determined to be safe, prior to installing the loudspeakers.  This is no do-it-yourself project.
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
Electroacoustic Design Services
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Tim Padrick

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Bryan Roberts

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2004, 02:44:07 am »

I agree with Tom, get an opinion from a local installer.

What type of programs are you running in this church. Contemporary worship is a different animal from piano or organ. This will help determine how much juice you need out of your improved system.

Also, do you have a decent Eq with which to notch out the offending freqs that are causing your feedback?? A lavalier can be tamed. So can a pulpit mic. If you are tonally inclined, a local sound co. could be called in to help get your room under control.

bryan
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Rory Buszka

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2004, 07:22:02 pm »

How about EAW's column speakers? They're designed to limit vertical dispersion as much as possible. They're sort of line-array-ish.

http://www.eaw.com/products/LS432.html

http://www.eaw.com/products/LS832.html

Use the bigger one if there's music being played through the speakers, and use the smaller one if it's just speech. The dome tweeters should sound much better than horns in that small space.
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Tom Young

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2004, 08:52:35 pm »

"How about EAW's column speakers? They're designed to limit vertical dispersion as much as possible. They're sort of line-array-ish."

The whole point to line arrays is the controlled projection in the vertical axis.  The LS-series do a pretty good job.  

But I would never categorize one as for music and one as for speech.  Both have very limted LF bandwidth and seriously need a bass device for music and for spoken word.

For the record, the Bose MA12 outperforms the LS-series in several ways:  they go down to 155Hz (as opposed to 200Hz for the larger LS832), they are smaller and lighter, they handle more power and they are less expensive.  The Bose MA12 may be stacked for increased directivity, power handling and bass response whereas the LS-series cannot be stacked due to their 2-way design. The LS-series IS a clever design utilizing passive frequency shading whereas the MA12 is just a 'dumb ole' line of fullrange drivers.

I am a big EAW fan and have used the LS832 in the past with very good results.  But the MA12 is my choice these days for this type of ldspkr.  EAW has broken new ground with their DSA series of active and digitally processed column spkrs, but which are not even close to being in the ballpark for this specific church.

You are correct that a line array / column speaker would be a very good candidate for this space.  And for more reasons than may be apparent. I alluded to this is my first reply.  But any of these columns spkr systems will end up costing more than these folks will poney up, once you add bass modules and (if MA12's) double the column length.
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Alan Hamilton

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Re: Main speakers in a small sanctuary
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2004, 04:27:42 pm »

We did an install this past spring using the Yorkville C2890 spkrs. I'm going to try and attach a pic (never posted a pic using this software before).

We did turn the horns (which are rotatable) for coverage with the cabs in the horizontal position. They are mounted using the optional C2890 brackets.

They are nice sounding speakers for the money, tho as you can see in the pic, we used more than a pair to cover the room and keep the volume down as much as possible.

Also, there are some subs in the room.

I'm not sure how 'lively' your services are as far as music so it makes it tough for me to make a call on whether the C2890's would be sufficient for you without subs. FWIW, your existing spkrs could be used for your organ so that shouldn't be an issue.

While the speakers aren't at all 'thin' sounding they are 2-8" spkrs (plus horn) and so expecting them to 'rock' (without subs) is a little much. Even moreso if you are asking a pr to cover the room.

That is the generic info. If you have some specific questions I could give you more detail.

index.php/fa/568/0/

AlanH "Hope the pic shows up"


Daniel wrote on Sun, 26 September 2004 23:32

Hi,

I need some suggestions on main speakers for a church sanctuary.  The seating area is a rectangle, 34 feet wide by 60 feet deep.  The pews are padded, seat and back, and are in two sections, one on either side with a center isle.  The ceiling is flat, approximately 13 feet high at the front.  The floor is carpeted and  slopes up to the back so the ceiling is lower in the back, just over 9 feet.  The pulpit and choir area is pushed out into a newer addition at the front.  Currently, the main speakers are on either side of the sanctuary, mounted in the front wall.  Since they are to the side, but behind the pulpit there is always some trouble with feedback.  Can you believe they were also wired with Romex (house wire)?  I want to move them out in front of the pulpit nearer the seating area and replace the Romex.  The current speakers are Peavey, not sure the model, with a Horn and a 12 or 15, but not appropriate for exposed mounting.  A center array will not look good because of the low ceiling height.  Right now I am considering mounting two Yorkville C2890 cabinets on the flat ceiling just before the first row of pews and centering each cabinet on the center of each section of pews. Does anyone have any comments on this idea?  Will the Yorkville's have enough "throw" to reach the back?  My other concern is will I have enough bass for the occasional accompaniment tracks or more contemporary music.  One idea is to try the C2890's for now and possibly add a sub-woofer later if needed.  If this doesn't work out, I have also considered a pair of Peavey Sanctuary Series SSE 12's mount on the side walls at the front of the seating area.  What does everyone think?  By the way, I am trying to keep the speakers under $1000.  Thanks in advance!

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