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[Ivan Beaver]

I want to add to that measurement that Tom posted is with 100 watts total into all 4 cabinets or to back calculate .25W into each speaker at 1M-NOT 100 watts into EACH speaker.

Also notice the amout of the smoothing at the bottom of the response graph.

[Erik Osland]

Hi Tom,

First off let me say it is an honor to speak to the a innovator himself.  

Second, I was hoping you could tell me what is meant by 142db/145db(peak) for the vortex.  Does this mean that the speaker can produce 142db max continuous?  Also, where do I find out about pricing and demos?

Erik

[Tom Danley]

Hi

Thanks, I’m flattered, but I’m a regular guy.
Maximum SPL, ugh, here is a tough one.
Normally this is a figure which is a calculation, not something measured.

For those who live by numbers alone, here is how the best number is attained.
Many subwoofers don’t have flat response, the sensitivity is not the same everywhere.
One takes the highest sensitivity seen and states that as the “system sensitivity”.
Believe it or not, there are plenty of subwoofers who’s high sensitivity is actually taken above or even way above the normal low pass filter point (above where you use it).
Then, with that 1Watt sensitivity, one takes 10 times the log of the rated power AND add 6 dB as the pink noise signal has a 6 dB peak level above average.
Then, many add an additional 3 dB to account for the Program rating.
Sounds simple, lets look at what it takes.
For a 1000W speaker power rating, one needs a 4000Watt amplifier, for +3dB, one needs an 8000Watt amplifier.
In real life, with music, one is not likely to use an amplifier with 8 times the power rating of the speaker. So you have no chance of getting anything like that number.

The typical “Full push” marketing specs for the Twister would be more like
Maximum output (no frequency range specified) = system sensitivity112dB +
phc30dB peak+6dB program+3dB = 151dB peak

In real life, lets say you were using it as a subwoofer and chose a lower crossover, like 80 Hz, your real sensitivity is about 102dB down low, where it matters.
Power compression begins at about 1 / 8 rated power normally, while hanging out in the open helps, our drivers are not immune to power compression either to be sure (no ones are).
If one measures a real speaker with real music and a peak hold meter, one finds the highest one can get is about 10dB ( about 1 /10 of ) or more, down from  the calculated output and at this point you are usually well past sounding ok.

At the moment our Maximum output spec are calculations also, but we do not add the normal 6dB due to the peak to average ratio and we do say in what frequency range it is.
A response curve, done intentionally in an acoustically proper way,  that others can repeat is provided so one can see at any frequency what its doing.

I’m all for a reality based loudspeaker data but actual peak SPL measurements would put us at too much of a disadvantage in the “numbers arena”, many people don’t look further than that or understand how the numbers are generated.. Here we are stuck with a “when in Rome…” dilemma. The compromise of dropping the 6 dB seemed less dishonest than the normal way without cutting our legs off altogether.
Hope that helps,

Tom

[Ivan Beaver]

If you look at the actual spec-that 142dB is at 110Hz, it clearly says so.  Now, whether or not you want to run your subs at that high a freq is up to you.  Down at the lower freq the output sensitivity is a bit lower.  You can look at the actual freq response chart and figure this out. The 2 specs are given so as to give an idea of various ways of giving numbers that are both repeatable.  By giving the HONEST specs, it gives you a chance to possibly do some comparisoms of speakers.  Many manufacturers will give you single number (regarding output levels), and you have no idea what feq this is actually at.  Danley gives you this, so you get what happens when you "assume".

Regarding pricing and demos-give Danley a call.  Anybody is welcome to come by the office for a demo (just call first), and bring any other speakers you would like to compare to the Danleys side by side.

[Pascal Pincosy]

I heard the TH-115's at a small dance party here in San Francisco. The name of the sound provider was FSound. The system consisted of QSC amps (PLX?), EV tops and a Driverack PA. I certainly didn't hear the cabinets side-by-side and the sound provider is definitely a newbie. He did have proper crossover settings programmed, but he'd used the Driveracks auto-eq function and the tops were runnning at about the same spl as the subs. To say that the show was painful is putting it lightly. The promoter asked me to help out and I spent a few minutes with the operator getting the levels adjusted to a less painful level.

I have run my system in the same room as this event was in, and I have a pretty good idea of what the Bassmaxx B-Zeros will do in there. I also made no comments about which cabinet was louder, or comments about the tone of the TH-115, as making a comparision about those qualities would be difficult without a side-by-side. But I do think that qualities like distortion and tightness are easier to discern independent of operator. I'm very familiar with my Bassmaxx B-Zeros, and I just don't think the TH-115's provide the same level of clarity and tightness. Not that I didn't think they sounded great, which I do, but I don't think they sounded as good as the B-Zeros.

If Danley Sound Labs wants to organize another Subwoofer Shootout on the west coast, I'd love to attend and hear both cabinets side-by-side. But until then I'm stuck with making comparisions between speakers at different events, and doing my best to take into account the quality of the operator. There are few of us out there who have the time and money to ship cabinets across the county to Danley Sound Labs showroom for a demo at their facility.

[Pascal Pincosy]

Again Tom, if you carefully read my original post, you'll see that I did not say the TH-115's were sloppy. They're not. What I said is that I didn't think that they sounded as tight as my Bassmaxx subs, which are the tightest and cleanest subs I'd ever heard up until I auditioned the Z-5 from Bassmaxx. Also note that in my comparision of apples and oranges, I was clearly impressed with the size of the TH-115, and in fact I stated that were size and weight more of a concern for me, I would pick the TH-115 over my Bassmaxx B-Zeros were I to make a purchase again (but maybe not if the Bassmaxx Z-5 was an option as well). I also only made the comparision as Mike brought up the TH-115 as an alternative to either the Basmaxx cabinets or SPL's Servodrive subs that Erik originally posted his question in regards to.

The measurements of the B-Zero were taken in a manner similar to Ivan's post, with a Meyer SIM II and graded Berhinger measurement mics. As the plots are on the SIM machine, it's a bit of work to get them converted to a format that I can post on the web but I'll see if I can dig them up and get them converted at some point soon. Would you mind posting the measurements of the TH-115 in return? The spec sheet on your site is almost unreadable and only shows a response down to 30hz.

No SH-50's at the show, but I'm certainly looking forward to getting a chance to hear them as I'm currently in the market for new tops for my system. What's the ETA on the tour version of the SH-50? And will there be a self-powered version?

[Gareth James]

Pascal, I would also be interested to see the measurements you made on the b-zero's, you say they were consistent with the specs on the website...?

Did you manage to work out where that extra dB comes from?

1000w being 30dB above 1w how does 139 - 30 equal 108? And no power compression...interesting

Tom, what driver is used in the Th-115? I think i heard it is (or is similar to) a B&C TBX...

Comparing the results from the shootout Wayne Parham organised http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/249.html
(which featured a Z5 bassmaxx), to the measured response from the TH-115 spec sheet, the bassmaxx holds around the 105dB mark until 58hz where it begins to roll off below 100dB.

Assuming these graphs are both correct, (considering theoretically identical test methods), the Bassmaxx is 5dB down compared to the TH-115 at 50hz, and by 40hz almost 10dB down

Would love to see definitive results from a shootout where both were present, then we wouldn't have to rely on theories  

[Chris Davis]

Price list??

[Ivan Beaver]

In order to simply show a response curve do a CTRL-PrtSC and paste the desktop onto a word document.  Then you can attach as needed.

I have done the same thing to the TH115 measurement and shown the response down to 20Hz and expanded the window, so you can easily see the actual levels.

The red line at the top is the phase.

If you would like to see it any other way-let me know.

[Walt de Jong]

Hello,

Please notice when measuring a stack of cabinets placed on the ground with the mic also on the ground you are NOT measuring halfspace. The frontal area of the cabinets will also start to form a boundary. This will cause a raise in measured effiency. The larger the stack, the lower the frequency this raise will start. A simple program such as AJ horn accounts for this effect.

A real halfspace measurement would be with the sub frontal area (mouth) flush mounted in the ground with the hornmouth pointing to the ear with the mic right above it.

What SPL levels where measured/estimated during the MTV show for 8000 people?

Also Erik, I don't low how low you need to get but in the cabinet volume of 4x TH-115 you can fit 6x Punisher horn which will produce about 148dB at 1 meter with 1000W/cabinet (calculated back from an outdoor measurement at 40 metres) This is a DIY design, the Ciare driver used is not expensive (You can probably build 6x Punisher horn for the same price as buying 1x TH-115). Recently at in indoor party 135dB(c) was measured 18 metres from the stage using only 8x Punisher horns  

Best regards,

Walt