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Author Topic: $4,000 Budget Recommendations  (Read 6693 times)

Chris Markus

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$4,000 Budget Recommendations
« on: January 19, 2006, 12:07:55 am »

I am in the market for a PA upgrade my current setup is as follows:

2 - RMX QSC 1450 Power Amps
1 - RMS QSC 2450 Power Amp
1 - BBE Crossover
1 - DOD Eq
2 - Yamaha Club 18 Subs
2 - Yamaha Club 15 Mains

I run the mains (the one bridged 1450 each) in stereo and mono (bridged 2450) to subs.  I think my setup is ok, but I want an overall improvement in sound quality and bass response.  I use Roland V drums so my pa is my only source of drum sound.  I think the best improvement would be from new speakers, but am not familiar with brands and I just don't know PA equipment.  My budget is $4k, and I'm looking mainly at speakers, but any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Paul O'Brien

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2006, 10:45:01 am »

Mr. Markus....  Please update your alias to your full name. Forum rules.

You could spend a bunch of $$$ buying new speakers, but the single biggest weakness I see with your gear is that BBE thing. Throw it out in the street and get a Driverack, that will breath new life into your sound. You're certainly not underpowered, and you could do a lot worse than the Club series speakers. The Driverack will give you the tools to get the most of your gear.
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Tom Reid

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2006, 11:08:56 am »

Paul O'Brien wrote on Thu, 19 January 2006 09:45

Mr. Markus....  Please update your alias to your full name. Forum rules.

You could spend a bunch of $$$ buying new speakers, but the single biggest weakness I see with your gear is that BBE thing. Throw it out in the street and get a Driverack, that will breath new life into your sound. You're certainly not underpowered, and you could do a lot worse than the Club series speakers. The Driverack will give you the tools to get the most of your gear.


Yup, a driverack, and maybe another EQ so the DOD doesn't see monitor world.

Speaking of monitors ...how's that rig?
You'd be surprised how cleaning up monitor mixes also cleans up FOH.


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Ted Christensen

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2006, 12:02:18 pm »

I think you would get an overall better sound if you maybe changed up your amp comfiguration. Im not saying your will for sure, but just a possibility.

Try putting the 1400's bridged on subs and run the 2450 on tops stereo.
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Chris Markus

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2006, 04:00:27 pm »

I updated my profile with my full name.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Anyway, first for monitors, I just run 2 12" clubs with a 1450, which is more than adequate sounding in my point of view and since we use v-drums, my drummer monitors with headphones from the mixer.  In regards to the Driver rack, I've never heard of it.  Is it a crossover?  Any on-line stores where I can check it out?  The BBE thing is a crossover that includes the Sonic Maximizer effect if needed.  I don't use the effect as it drives my subs too hard and seems to make the highs too harsh, but the crossover seems to be ok. I wish I would have posted this earlier, because I just bought that stupid crossover.  The DOD eq is suspect, I think it is robbing signal causing one side to be louder than the other...I will replace the eq.  For speakers, I was thinking those Carvin TRX's would be worth a look, but if it's not going to improve my sound much , why waste the $...Also, I was wondering about Yorkville, or TCS, Mackie etc.  Thanks
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Chris Markus

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2006, 04:12:43 pm »

Ok, I found the Driverack...looks like around $500 bucks.  Actually, I've seen this before, but thought is was more for the JBL guys.  I like the idea of the eq presets..I am not a tweaking kind of guy and I hate making eq adjustements.  I think I may still be able to return the other crossover...  Thanks
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John Chiara

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2006, 06:02:38 pm »

Chris Markus wrote on Thu, 19 January 2006 00:07

I am in the market for a PA upgrade my current setup is as follows:

2 - RMX QSC 1450 Power Amps
1 - RMS QSC 2450 Power Amp
1 - BBE Crossover
1 - DOD Eq
2 - Yamaha Club 18 Subs
2 - Yamaha Club 15 Mains

I run the mains (the one bridged 1450 each) in stereo and mono (bridged 2450) to subs.  I think my setup is ok, but I want an overall improvement in sound quality and bass response.  I use Roland V drums so my pa is my only source of drum sound.  I think the best improvement would be from new speakers, but am not familiar with brands and I just don't know PA equipment.  My budget is $4k, and I'm looking mainly at speakers, but any suggestions would be appreciated.


I would get a pair of Danley TH 115 subs. Real headroom and real low frequency response will add a huge amount of realism to the setup..and you will find you can run everything else lower.


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Nathan Schwarzkopf

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2006, 10:49:23 am »

hello chris

I would say that your PA should be pretty adequate if your doing small places.  Maybe add another pair of subs but I like alot of low with my sound so that's a personal taste.  On the v drum issue I have mixed a handful of bands using vdrums and my options vary.
1 is it a cheap kit - I have noticed that the cheaper ones sound almost distorted or gritty.
2 is the drummer running it right. - if hes clipping that little black box your definitely not going to have your optimal sound
3 Are you DI-ing it or going straight to the board.
Another thought I had was what board are you using.  again opinion but unless your driving the snot of your your system I think it sound decent.  So I start thinking of mics and mic pre's. What board are you using?.  As others have said the BBE and the DOD might help by removing from the signal path(hit the bypass button and see if the sound cleans up alittle.)  
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Roy Richards NRBC Media

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2006, 06:08:34 pm »

Of course, before you bypass the crossover, make certain your amps have their bandpass filters set for your config, too much high freq in the subs will toast them.
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John Schmidt

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Re: $4,000 Budget Recommendations
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2006, 09:22:50 pm »

The Driverack is a good idea, but I'd recommend spending a few hundred dollars more and springing for the Driverack 260 instead of the Driverack PA, (shop around for prices - I've seen the DR260 for under $750 a number of times). The DR260 is far more flexible in its functions than the DRPA, and can also be controlled and set up from a laptop computer, which cannot be done with the DRPA. This makes it far easier to do initial setup and get into custom tweaks - you can pretty much jump directly between settings and functions, instead of cycling through a bunch of buttons and the control knob. It's also much easier to understand what's going on when everything is viewable graphically.

I just think it really makes sense to start out this way, instead of getting frustrated by the complexity of setting everything up via the controls on the unit itself.

John
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Nathan Lehouillier

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Paging Roy
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2006, 09:07:38 pm »

I would like to know more about how you "toast" sub's
with HF? I do prefer LF out of my sub's but can't quite
figure out how you could kill an sub with HF.
Thanks,
Nathan Lehouillier
Kick Drum Sound & Lighting
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Andy Peters

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Re: Paging Roy
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2006, 11:15:12 pm »

Nathan Lehouillier wrote on Mon, 13 February 2006 19:07

I would like to know more about how you "toast" sub's
with HF? I do prefer LF out of my sub's but can't quite
figure out how you could kill an sub with HF.


Well, think about this.  The voice coil has some impedance.  Put some HF into the speaker, and even though the speaker doesn't do a very good job of reproducing HF, you're still dissipating that power in the voice coil.  Put in enough power, and ... you burn out the voice coil.

-a
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Nathan Lehouillier

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Re: Paging Andy
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2006, 10:36:02 pm »

Andy,
Joking a side It's not like your going to boost 10K
60 db to try to flatten out your all purpose 18"
My point was more that it's misleading to tell
someone that you sub's will burn up if they see HF.
I have no technical data to prove that 400w of hf will heat
a coil more or less than 400w of LF but I would like to see
someone come up with that.
Possibly the decrease in excursion by 50%
per octave leads speakers with active cooling solution's
Heatwick/ventedgap to the failure point??
I do believe it is or was Turbo Sound that has/had there hi mid speakers naturally roll off with no low pass on that pass band.
I would think this would lead to "toasting" the drivers?
From what I have experienced the directivity of frequency's above a 1/4 wave length of the cone's diameter become more of a concern than over heating.
And I am sorry for hi jacking this post I just though this could use alittle clearing up.
Respectfully,
Nathan Lehouillier
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Paging Andy
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2006, 12:12:37 am »

Nathan Lehouillier wrote on Tue, 14 February 2006 21:36

Andy,
Joking a side It's not like your going to boost 10K
60 db to try to flatten out your all purpose 18"
My point was more that it's misleading to tell
someone that you sub's will burn up if they see HF.
I have no technical data to prove that 400w of hf will heat
a coil more or less than 400w of LF but I would like to see
someone come up with that.
Possibly the decrease in excursion by 50%
per octave leads speakers with active cooling solution's
Heatwick/ventedgap to the failure point??
I do believe it is or was Turbo Sound that has/had there hi mid speakers naturally roll off with no low pass on that pass band.
I would think this would lead to "toasting" the drivers?
From what I have experienced the directivity of frequency's above a 1/4 wave length of the cone's diameter become more of a concern than over heating.
And I am sorry for hi jacking this post I just though this could use alittle clearing up.
Respectfully,
Nathan Lehouillier



I believe the proper perspective on this is that all of the energy applied to the voice coil contributes to it's heat load whether it makes sound or not. While the LF driver is not likely to fail just because some mid or high frequency gets in, if it's on the edge of overheating adding some more out of band energy doesn't help matters, not to mention making the amp work harder for no benefit.

JR
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Nathan Lehouillier

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Thanks
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2006, 09:50:05 am »

Agreed,

Power applied is power applied.
Thanks,
Nathan Lehouillier
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Andy Peters

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Re: Paging Andy
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2006, 12:57:31 pm »

Nathan Lehouillier wrote on Tue, 14 February 2006 20:36

Joking a side It's not like your going to boost 10K
60 db to try to flatten out your all purpose 18"


Not joking either, but I have seen attempts to "improve" HF response in 2" compression drivers by boosting HF (over and above any CD horn boost).  No extra output, but early amp clipping and more heat dissipated in the driver.

Quote:

My point was more that it's misleading to tell
someone that you sub's will burn up if they see HF.


Well, I did say, "put in enough power." Smile

-a
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Nathan Lehouillier

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Re: Paging Andy
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2006, 01:55:59 pm »

I see were you are coming from.
Thanks,
Nathan Lehouillier
KDS&L
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Roy Richards NRBC Media

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Re: Paging Roy
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2006, 05:27:23 pm »

Quote:

My point was more that it's misleading to tell
someone that you sub's will burn up if they see HF.

I have repaired a few of those Yamaha 18 subs that did indeed burn up while being fed without a crossover. The heat dissipation is significantly reduced as the frequency is increased. It was the same in all of them, the voice coil had melted near the middle of the winding, indicating a heat issue. While the amp feeding the speakers was matched to the speaker wattage, the coils still burnt up. After showing the users how to feed the subs with a low pass filter, they have not had any more meltdowns.

Just my experience with the Yamaha subs, sorry if you felt it was mis-leading.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Paging Roy
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2006, 09:13:07 pm »

Roy Richards  NRBC Media wrote on Thu, 16 February 2006 16:27

 

My point was more that it's misleading to tell
someone that you sub's will burn up if they see HF.

I have repaired a few of those Yamaha 18 subs that did indeed burn up while being fed without a crossover. The heat dissipation is significantly reduced as the frequency is increased. It was the same in all of them, the voice coil had melted near the middle of the winding, indicating a heat issue. While the amp feeding the speakers was matched to the speaker wattage, the coils still burnt up. After showing the users how to feed the subs with a low pass filter, they have not had any more meltdowns.

Just my experience with the Yamaha subs, sorry if you felt it was mis-leading.



By all means, it's good practice to bandpass any multi-amped speaker. FWIW with subs don't disregard the lower skirt too. Pumping in LF energy below what the box can handle will do nothing good and can cause mechanical issues as well adding to thermal load.

JR
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