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[RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS]

Dan Brown wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 11:26

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 11:05 90 db A weighted at mix position sounds really good to my ears.  Anything over 100 is just stupid and irresponsible, 110+ and I won't go in the room!  Tech riders that say 115 db at mix position should be shredded!  I provided sound for an event a couple months ago where the performers insisted on really stupid loud (ended up about 120 db C weighted at about 20'-25' My system was maxxed and the limiters were working overtime) so I set up F.O.H. in monitor world, did a quick mix for them and left the building.  I was not going to damage my ears just for them, no way! Sounds like you needed more PA.  This is not a, "we are going to run 115db", it is, "we need to have the headroom in the PA to be able to handle the peaks". I had a show the other night that had a MAX peak of 127.1dbC set on fast and 117.5dbC set on slow.  we were Averaging 100dbA set on slow for the show. [All these measurements were taken at FOH which was about 80-90ft. from the stage.  The show was indoors.] OSHA's standard for levels and times is an A weighted scale NOT C weighted. If you can have a great mix at 90dbC, more power to you.  I feel that making a great mix under 95dbC makes you a better mixer as you have to adjust things in a more subtle fashion. sincerely, db [Edit - added distance to FOH]

I don't need more P.A. (Although I want more P.A.) they only hired in two subs and two tops for this event in a ball room for 150 people!  They need more money if they want more sound.  Also note that my typical 90db mix that makes me happy as noted above is A weighted, slow response at mix position.  I do mostly small to medium sized festivals for municipalities so they like the 90db mixes too.  Of course they vary a bit but thats typical +/-.

[yam4000vca Jim Gould]

I probably need to clarify a few things. First of all I am by no means deaf.
My reputation was and still is always having a solid on the low end easy on the ear mix. At least by rock and roll standards.
110db may be a bit deceiving too as I was never at 110db all the time but would hit peaks of that during a rock show.
I think that for me the whole thing was cumulative and for as many years as I did it if I mixed at 100db damage would have still been done.
The bottom line is you know that in the long run your ears can be damaged but when you are younger you feel pretty bullet proof in many ways. My fathers hearing was worse than mine at a younger age and he worked in a steel mill.
                yam4000vca= Jim Gould

[Evan Kirkendall]

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 12:05

90 db A weighted at mix position sounds really good to my ears.  Anything over 100 is just stupid and irresponsible, 110+ and I won't go in the room!  Tech riders that say 115 db at mix position should be shredded!  I provided sound for an event a couple months ago where the performers insisted on really stupid loud (ended up about 120 db C weighted at about 20'-25' My system was maxxed and the limiters were working overtime) so I set up F.O.H. in monitor world, did a quick mix for them and left the building.  I was not going to damage my ears just for them, no way!

At the beginning of the year I bought some ear plugs with 12db filters. And Im glad I did... I run some loud events. One room I do holds 300 people max(small room), and by the time I get the PA up over stage volume we are hitting 110-112db @ FOH(30' back). Its loud as hell... But! Somehow kids manage to hold conversations right in front of the speakers... I dont know how they do it.

Another event I do is larger and held in a gym(700 max). The PA is also bigger, but I only run 98-100db @ FOH(50' back). Its a little nicer, even though some bands can still get up around 105db.

I'd like to turn it down, but I just cant... Most of the time my ears are fine afterwords... I think.

Im just glad more acoustic acts are booking me.

Evan

[Tom Young]

Why was this a shock ?

We've read here and many places elsewhere for probably 20 years that we and the audiences were going to experience hearing loss due to the levels we mixed shows and (to a lesser extent) how loudly we listen to home and car audio.

There's little mystery here.

[John Roberts {JR}]

yam4000vca wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 10:25

Well it happened to me and I do not think anybody that is around this business for as long as I have been mixing pretty loud rock and roll bands would have there ears react a lot differently. I will tell that at this time I am 53yrs old and have been mixing for over 30 yrs. During a routine physical my family doctor could not get what he thought was a normal result. He made an appointment for me to go to an audiologist. If I was not at work now I would try to post the graphs of the tests on my ears. I am sure that many that have done it as long as I have at the levels I have would be in the same boat. Just for a reference I will tell that my usual level mixing a rock show was 110db. I always took pride in having a smooth solid mix so I can say that my ears never rang. I have noticed of late telling people “what” a lot when they did not speak up or there was ambient noise around. Another interesting fact is that I can still mix and enjoy listening to music. Louder than my wife would like though. I just mixed a pretty large show over the Thanksgiving weekend and received many compliments on the sound. I am told I can get new digital hearing aids but even with very good health insurance coverage from my work the only thing that I can obtain is a 10 to 15% discount on them. I post this so that all realize that this is real and if we were working under OSHA rules we could only do 15min of a show. Being older I am not sure I would enjoy a rock show mixed at what I consider less that solid rock and roll volume. The effect of this is cumulative and I do not think that going to a show or two a month will hurt a lot but doing at as may times a week as I have will get to you. All you young guys out there get the mix together and put in the plugs. I still hear pretty well but the extent and results of this were still a shock to me.

Sorry to hear about this and hopefully you can stop any further degradation. I believe the ears can somewhat regenerate but as we get older things heal slower (or never).

I am surprised there isn't a whole generation deaf from Walkman's and such (better sue Sony while they're still around).

Take care... and thanks for being open about this. I knew a well known industry type who was deaf in one ear and hard of hearing in the other... he kept it a secret to not damage his rep as a product designer. He designed really great stuff and I kept his confidence. FWIW he's no longer active in audio.  

JR

[yam4000vca Jim Gould]

It was still a suprise to me to see this and I function quite well in my work as both an educator and part time in audio these days.
I guess I knew it would happen but for me it is still a suprise to be told.
My results in mixing are still real good but if I was still doing this for 100% of my living I would never admit to such a handicap.
I am pretty sure that a lot of people in this busniess have this problem to some degree if they have pleased rock and roll clients for many years.

[Martin Hansford]

I wonder if the time is coming when we are going to get sued for damageing our auidences ears.

[Andy Spalla]

Quote:

90 db A weighted at mix position sounds really good to my ears.

Sounds great to me too! But when the stage is at 105db on their own, you kinda get scred on that one...

[charles clark]

I was mixing a show (underground hardcore stuff) at a performing arts center once, and the regular house guy came in and asked me how I could stand it so loud in there. He went and got his level meter (I need to get one of them someday...) and measured it averaging 114 and peaking around 118 in the back of the room (about 50 feet or so...small but nice room). I told him that I didn't even have guitars in the mains the band was so loud on stage (Thanks Mr. Marshall and their full stacks of guitar amps). Now I try to get them to crossfire the guitars and let me mix them out front when in smaller rooms. Most bands are accomodating, some just look at me like I am crazy. I have no clue how the bands can still hear.

Anyway, I thought to my self that it really didn't seem that loud, and right then I realized that I should probably be wearing hearing protection more often. And yea, I do find my self straining to hear converstions sometimes, reminding me that my hearing isn't what it used to be. Now after the show gets going I am likely to put headphones on or earplugs in if it's loud, and just take them off periodically for checking the room sound.

[John Roberts {JR}]

Martin Hansford wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 21:40

I wonder if the time is coming when we are going to get sued for damageing our auidences ears.

There was a thread about such a lawsuit IIRC a few years ago right here. I don't recall the final disposition of the case but since there weren't ripples felt through the community, I assume it was dropped or settled quietly and cheaply.

There may be difficulty: proving specific cause and effect, putting a high enough value on the specific damage from one event, and dearth of innocent audience members who probably routinely use walkmans (are IPODs better engineered wrt SPL?) and/or have other exposure to hearing damage.

I just returned from a trade show where my booth handout was (cheap) earplugs. It was only partially tongue in cheek. I was at a very loud percussionists convention (imagine hundreds of drums in a large room getting wanked on at the same time... .

I fear we are in a catch 22 situation just like tobacco companies were. Should concert promoters hand out free earplugs to the audience it might be construed as admission of damaging SPLs or at least inform the ignorant of the possibility for injury. In today's litigious culture if there's injury, there must be deep pockets somewhere to make me whole again. I'm afraid we are not a culture who routinely take full responsibility for our actions.

It seems to me if the earplugs are handed out in the context of comfort there may be less liability, and few takers. Perhaps a cheap earplug could be engineered with a smiley face curve (it could happen) would actually sound good to the audience while providing protection in the critical intelligibility bands.

JR

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