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Author Topic: [Retitled] Details of buying/owning a mid-sized line array  (Read 9316 times)

Phillip_Graham

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[Retitled] Details of buying/owning a mid-sized line array
« on: November 26, 2005, 07:27:01 PM »

So Langston's 650z's, and their very professional auction, are now gone.  What's left is a useful thread that talks about trading your audio company up into the line array market.  I have modified my original post to reflect this.
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Mike Butler (media)

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Re: Most professional Pro Audio Ebay Auction Ever?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2005, 10:51:21 AM »

$2K per box, like new WITH fly gear and covers. Kool!Cool  

Wish I had the 17 large to outbid. Crying or Very Sad
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<a href="http://www.mikebutlermedia.com" target="_blank">http://www.mikebutlermedia.com</a>

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Langston Holland

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Re: Most professional Pro Audio Ebay Auction Ever?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2005, 08:01:34 PM »

Wow... just read your post - that was embarrassing and huge. I'll beat you with a light bar if you don't invite me to your graduation. :)

When I started this second childhood thing in Jan '04 after 18 years in finance (the only thing I'm formally trained in), I had no idea there would be a LAB or Syn-Aud-Con list. These two entities and folks like you have made this thing work and a whole lot more fun. :)

I'm not aware of anything approaching the free distribution of knowledege that one has available in the pro audio and music industry. My guess is that most folks are in this out of passion and helping others is just another outlet for the joy of its practice.

I absolutely want the many benefits of a mid-sized line array at this point, but I'm having trouble deciding which way to go. I feel another post coming on... :))
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Michael Prasuhn

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Re: Most professional Pro Audio Ebay Auction Ever?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2005, 08:49:11 PM »

Someone really needs to make a thorough grid and post it on their website of all the specs available and every  single parameter that you can shake a stick at. Better yet, write a web app to compare any number of them at a time, user selectable. Wait I know someone who wrote that, and the manufacturer told him he couldn't do that, the specs were copyrighted (this was with lighting equipment).

Seriously though, what have you heard? Are you talking to reps to get them to shows to hear them and talk with the engineers and system techs about them? There might be something painfully obvious that would rule out a choice that you are researching that you wouldn't understand until seeing or hearing it in person. I've talked to a lot of people who want things, but aren't even willing to do this simple step.

Keep us updated, sounds like it should be alot of fun.

-Mikey P
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Michael D. Prasuhn
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Eric Snodgrass

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Re: Most professional Pro Audio Ebay Auction Ever?
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2005, 09:02:48 PM »

Langston, we just had Jethro Tull in the venue a few weeks ago and the are traveling with a d&b line array and I must say that is the most musical and smooth line array I have ever heard.  The boxes are about the size of the Meyer M2D system or a dVdosc but the coverage and throw are quite impressive.  The sound quality is extremely good too.  
I think they were the Q1 series.

http://www.dbaudio.com/en/systems/q_series/q1_/

And they are small enough that they won't break your back.  
They might break the bank, though.  
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Eric Snodgrass
No, really, I do this for a living.

Langston Holland

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Mid Size Line Array Comparison
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2005, 01:23:12 AM »

Hey Michael - I'm definitely gonna get demo's of the front runners - none of which I've heard yet. I want to hear them flown outdoors in a big field near my house. :) I'm going to look into Eric's d&b suggestion as well - I'm not about to take a backstep in sound quality just to get the practical advantages of a LA.

Anyway, I've only considered 3 offerings up to this point, and that's down to 2 since I can't justify JBL's pricing (see table). I'm somewhat biased toward US made stuff, but willing to go overseas if the bang/buck ratio is significantly better. I'm quite biased toward EAW in general and "horn dawg" in particular. The KF730 series really appeals to the grey matter and the software is a stinking work of art. It even has the amazing ability to output EASE v3.x polars specific to the array setup, hang, and listener distance. Among other things, this allows a look at the horizontal coverage and I've got Chris Pye of LARA working on the possiblity of importing the data into his program that has made such a difference with my KF650z arrays. :)

It looks like the XLC has a serious pricing advantage and possibly a horsepower advantage if EV's LAPS macro is telling the truth (a comfortable 450ft throw compared to the KF's 250ft or so prediction). EAW may be a tad conservative, I don't know yet, but I look forward to telling all in a month or two when my homework is completed.

index.php/fa/3353/0/

Are we gonna get in trouble since this forum is supposed to be off-topic? :)
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Mid Size Line Array Comparison
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2005, 11:41:29 AM »

Langston, I was going to suggest you include the L'Acoustic Kudo, and Meyer Mica, but if the Vertec is out the running on price, my guess is that the Kudo and the Meyer Mica will be as well. The Kudo has the advantage of adjustable horizontal coverage, although I don't know anyone who has actually used them yet. Past experience with L'Acoustic products bodes well.

How many boxes in the EV prediction to get 450' of coverage!!!? That seems highly unlikely. I have used a lot of V-DOSC, dv-DOSC, Vertec 4889, 4887, and Meyer M2D arrays, and I have not seen any of them give coverage that far. I have worked a concert where they had arrays of 20 V-DOSC per array, that covered that far outside at Giants Stadium, and I assume arrays that large of Vertec could do the same, but indoors with arrays of 8 or 10 mid sized boxes it ain't gonna happen.

Your note about having the groups of 4 array elements pre-pinned in the box is a concern. My experience with dv-DOSC, which are packaged this way, is that it is too difficult to get them back in the boxes still pinned. In any case, the rear pins are removed so the boxes are flat in the case. The rear pins are added as the motor takes the array up. The dv's are only 72 pounds, and 3 per case. I assume getting 4 per case will be even harder with them pinned. I think EAW has plans for a speaker dolly to take 4 boxes vertically, which is a whole lot easier to rig and un-rig. Arrays with good flying hardware go together pretty quickly and easily. I don't think you need to be that concerned about having them pre-pinned.

Good luck with your search.

Mac
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Langston Holland

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Re: Mid Size Line Array Comparison
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2005, 04:20:37 PM »

Mac - that kind of stuff is extremely helpful. I can read books and punch buttons, but I have little of the most valuable thing there is in this business: experience.

On the XLC-127+ out to approx. 450ft, I too thought that a bit of a stretch, especially given my spec. of the top of the 8 box array at only 22ft. Here's a screen shot:

index.php/fa/3356/0/
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Mid Size Line Array Comparison
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2005, 04:31:42 PM »

I have never used the EV prediction software, and I don't know what kind of assumptions it is making, but with a quick look it seems that beyond 100 feet it is assuming you are in the reverberant field, where level does not fall off with distance. When you are in the reverberant field intelligibility goes down, so one goal of good system design is to keep as much of the audience as possible in the direct field for better sound quality and intelligibility.

Mac
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Langston Holland

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Re: Mid Size Line Array Comparison
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2005, 05:14:08 PM »

Mac wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005

I have never used the EV prediction software, and I don't know what kind of assumptions it is making, but with a quick look it seems that beyond 100 feet it is assuming you are in the reverberant field, where level does not fall off with distance. When you are in the reverberant field intelligibility goes down, so one goal of good system design is to keep as much of the audience as possible in the direct field for better sound quality and intelligibility.



That word "assumptions" is very likely where the rub is, as opposed to a great deal more horsepower out of a less expensive box. The EV software does have a choice between indoor and outdoor venues, and I just noticed that the latter gives a serious boost to the long throw predictions due to the following logic:

"Indoors/Outdoors: If outdoors is selected the acoustic model will include an extra factor that approximates the effects of thermal gradients that occur on warm sunny days. This effect occurs when the temperature at ground level is several degrees higher than the temperature at 20 or 30 feet above the ground."

Here's a screen shot of both outdoor (upper) and indoor (lower) predictions, holding all other variables constant:

index.php/fa/3357/0/
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