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Author Topic: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults  (Read 5147 times)

Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« on: November 16, 2005, 04:53:10 PM »

     I just went through and modeled all of the Adire tumults VS Lab 12 and have found that even though The Adire's have a huge Xmax advantage over the Lab that, All of the adires would require much larger boxes in a vented Cab Due mainly to port length to get ~the same LF extension as the Lab 12.  Adire 15's would have Almost the Same output in a box that is 17cu' as my BS-212 that is 7cu'.  The 12's and 18's need silly large cabs, and Huge power.

    Though a single Tumult 18" in a 5.8cu' closed box would have Excellent Extension down Bellow to 20Hz 112dB 1KW and one could apply a sort of ELF Eq to it.  I think that would be a nice option but building 1 of those costs almost as much as building 2 of my BS-212's.  It may be worth the extra cost to gain the extra phase linearity???

    I challenge you all to design a conventional Reflex cab, of the same size or smaller with the same or greater LF extension and same or greater sensitivity and power handling across its entire powerbandwidth without exceeding Xmax.  With as low of distortion as the BS.  For the same price range or less ~1000$ for 2 Cabs.  Only using different components.

    I'm probably going to make my BS-212 cad drawings available to LAB Subwoofer board if anyone cares.  It isn't very hard to duplicate the design.  Mine could use some improvements.

    Designing a similar cab using conventional drivers, of similar size and price range and spec seems to be the hard part.

     I am starting to really believe that the Lab 12 is probably the best LF motor available for how much the thing costs.

    I know Tom, has got us all licked as far as Horn sub technology.  And the contra bass is an interesting bi-dirrectional option.  

    How about something a little simpler for the DIY masses.

    Who's with me?

Antone-
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Paul O'Brien

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2005, 10:55:47 AM »

Have a look at Resonant Engineering. The XXX line looks pretty impressive in WinISD.
http://www.reaudio.com/html/subs.htm
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Paul O

Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2005, 12:26:45 PM »

     The optimal vented box sizes are all huge though the xxx 18 looks like it would be another good candidate for a closed box.  Some how I doubt all of that Chrome plating is going to make the drivers more cost effective than the Tumult.  They are nice looking drivers but I doubt the 12's can compete for price or performance with the labs.

Keep in mind the BS-212 ~6.1cu' internal plus ~1 more cubic foot for the port.  Intended to be used in pairs volume is ~14cu'

Antone.  
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Paul O'Brien

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2005, 01:52:28 PM »

Antone Atmarama Bajor wrote on Thu, 17 November 2005 12:26

     The optimal vented box sizes are all huge though the xxx 18 looks like it would be another good candidate for a closed box.  Some how I doubt all of that Chrome plating is going to make the drivers more cost effective than the Tumult.  They are nice looking drivers but I doubt the 12's can compete for price or performance with the labs.

Keep in mind the BS-212 ~6.1cu' internal plus ~1 more cubic foot for the port.  Intended to be used in pairs volume is ~14cu'
Antone.  


Oh.. I wan't comparing drivers 1 for 1, more what 1 of these can do compared to the 4 labs. My sims show a single xxx15 in a 9cu ft ported alignment is pretty close to 4 of your lab 12s in response(nearly flat to 20hz) and power handling(1600w total), according to ISDPro anyway. The max SPL still goes to the lab boxes with a ~3.5db advantage above 45hz, so no it doesn't beat them, but you still get 120db+ with 1 driver & box vs 2 boxes & 4 drivers. The Labs are $150ea at PE, I think this RE driver goes for between $400-500.  I'm no chrome fan either, BTW, just thought this was impressive piece Very Happy
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Paul O

Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2005, 02:39:10 PM »

Hmm Yes it does model pretty close.  
Thats the only one I didn't model.
Too Bad they don't give Le.  

    The XXX 15 models Within 1 or 2 DB of the BS @ 20Hz although I can get ~3 or 4 more dB @ 30Hz.  I suppose moving a box that is ~9.6Cu' isn't so bad but its still pretty large.  The cost would be very close.  Group delay is a little worse,  I wonder what the THD around cut off would be.  

    Since I used a differential speaker config, I have much less even order Harmonic Distortion.  100Watts @ 10Meters gave me 1.08% THD @ 20Hz and stayed in the low 1% range down to ~16Hz.  I haven't done full power THD though.  Those tests should come soon.

Cool stuff.
Thanks.

Antone-    
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Michael_Elliston¶

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2005, 09:53:41 PM »

Antone Atmarama Bajor wrote on Fri, 18 November 2005 08:39

Hmm Yes it does model pretty close.  
Thats the only one I didn't model.
Too Bad they don't give Le.  

    The XXX 15 models Within 1 or 2 DB of the BS @ 20Hz although I can get ~3 or 4 more dB @ 30Hz.  I suppose moving a box that is ~9.6Cu' isn't so bad but its still pretty large.  The cost would be very close.  Group delay is a little worse,  I wonder what the THD around cut off would be.  

    Since I used a differential speaker config, I have much less even order Harmonic Distortion.  100Watts @ 10Meters gave me 1.08% THD @ 20Hz and stayed in the low 1% range down to ~16Hz.  I haven't done full power THD though.  Those tests should come soon.

Cool stuff.
Thanks.

Antone-    

Are you comparing sealed XXX15 vs horn? The power requirements are just so great.

For some reason I still think the direct radiator will lose by alot. I cant imagine the xxx15 producing as clean signal as the horn. If its rated ~34mm Xmax it should though,right/

Mike.e
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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2005, 01:59:40 AM »

     No I was comparing the single 15" direct radiator to my. Dual/quad 12" direct radiator that I'm doing a Push Pull config with to lower THD well at leas it lowers even order harmonic distortion.

   My pair of BS-212's measured 1.08%THD at 20Hz @ 100Watts @ 10Meters.

    None of the other Direct radiators I measured came close to that near their low cut.  They were all closer to 20% THD  I was shocked at how High the THD was on my 2245 in the 40Hz region.

    Horns are supposed to have a very low THD from what I understand.  I read the papers about how Best case scenario horn is to have the transducer freely radiating its front and back wave energies into an Identical Load.  That would be sorta neat.  A big Bi-Polar Horn.  I don't think it would be to helpfull for pa or home use.

Antone-
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Michael_Elliston¶

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2005, 09:49:55 PM »

Antone Atmarama Bajor wrote on Wed, 23 November 2005 19:59

     No I was comparing the single 15" direct radiator to my. Dual/quad 12" direct radiator that I'm doing a Push Pull config with to lower THD well at leas it lowers even order harmonic distortion.

   My pair of BS-212's measured 1.08%THD at 20Hz @ 100Watts @ 10Meters.

    None of the other Direct radiators I measured came close to that near their low cut.  They were all closer to 20% THD  I was shocked at how High the THD was on my 2245 in the 40Hz region.

    Horns are supposed to have a very low THD from what I understand.  I read the papers about how Best case scenario horn is to have the transducer freely radiating its front and back wave energies into an Identical Load.  That would be sorta neat.  A big Bi-Polar Horn.  I don't think it would be to helpfull for pa or home use.

Antone-

Ah okay. Yes ideally one horn on each side of the radiator. But that last horn will only give 3dB more,while doubling the already large horn Wink

BS-212 distortion is very low!
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Mike Bentz

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2006, 11:21:33 AM »

What exactly are the "specs" of the Lab-12 anyway? I've been through all the documentation (or apparently not) and can't seem to find the F3, cabinet volume, and maxSPL. But I can think of a few drivers in reflex cabinets that get insane SPL's and dig pretty low too.
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Ivan Beaver

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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2006, 02:08:58 AM »

     The Lab 12 is not a cabinet it is a driver.  If you are thinking about the Lab Sub which uses the Lab 12 driver.  There is an archive of information linked at the top of the page.

    I have built a Reflex Cab (or Pair of Cabs acting as one)  Using 4 Lab 12 Drivers.  If you want to see some frequency sweeps I took of these boxes vs.  Some other big name drivers Look here: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/82403/8490/?SQ=5 e97df77e5068fb41b0967fa10fb6a51

    The White Line is the BS-212 with the Lab 12's.
    So you say you know some drivers that will dig pretty low.

    I dare you to find me a driver that Digs as low in a similar sized reflex enclosure.

    I am not interested in Max SPL figures at anything above ~35Hz.

    Show me the Money

Antone-
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Mike Bentz

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Re: Lab 12 Modeled against Adire Tumults
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2006, 04:00:45 PM »

Crap, I meant the specs of the LabSub...
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