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[gainreduction]

Greetings Audio People,

 I'm the sound team director for my church and we're currently mixing on the A&H GL3300.  I love it and have used it (or its brother and sister A&H models) for years.  We're running a great system with Renkus Heinz CT tops flown and EAW subs in a large wharehouse setting.  We are truly blessed and God is growing us quickly!

 I've been looking over the Verona for a while now and really want to hear from someone that's using one in a church environment.  What kind of improvements could we expect if we were to get into one of these?  I know, I know, EVERYTHING would sound different, but what specifically could I use to present it to my pastor in a way that would help me justify selling what we have and upgrading?  I've never mixed on a Midas, but I've listened to them at many concerts, know their reputation and with this new desk coming out at a somewhat realistic price point, I really want to take our sound to the next level.

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated!

In Him,
Steve Johnson
Miami, FL

[sounddude1]

Soon, you will get glowing reports from Mike S. His church got one. If you get one, the sky will be brighter, and the birds will sing prettier. It says Midas on it. That is all that matters. I am sure your congregation will be much better served by replacing that cheap A&H with something that costs a LOT more. Why do you think you need a new board? What does the GL lack that you think the MIDAS will fix? Can you justify the expenditure? Are there other areas that could use the money, or is a shiny new MIDAS your ONLY need?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a nice tool. But if you already have a car that gets you there, and your roof leaks, maybe you don't need a more expen$ive car.

[gainreduction]

Dude, have you been talking to my wife??

scary.

I hear you, I'm sure there are other needs in the church, but holes in the roof are not on the list (Thank God).  We're doin' okay, I just wanted to hear from anyone that's driving one and how they like it.  

My biggest need is to have King Kong behind the drumset play with straws instead of the logs he uses, but hey, V-Drums are another topic.

[Karl P(eterson)]

I doubt he has been talking to your wife, but he may have just been having a rough day.

In any case, there is some truth in what he says, if there isn't any problems (lack of current channels, lack of enough aux's, lack of reliability in your current console, lack of _____) then there is no reason to replace it.

If, on the other hand, as I suspect, you are starting to run up against one or more of those walls, then it may be time to look at another board, although don't single out midas as the only player. While there board is nice (I have used there verona and other boards of there up to there Heritage 4k) they are far from the only "top end player". Audio Toys, Cadac, Yamaha, Soundcraft, Digico and Innovason are but a few of the top shelf console makers.

In fact, if you were to be considering a new console, I would highly recommend you take a sideroute and look into a soundcraft MH3 or maybe even a digital PM5D or Innovason sy40.

So, don't buy it just because you want it, thats a waste of resources, but if you need it, and the rest of your system is up to snuf, well then, start exploring!

Karl P

[Dan Timon]

I am not quite sure where to start. I would guess from your job title that you are responsible for the overall budgeting and staffing of the sound team, and possibly are a team leader or small group leader for your technical ministry. It is good that you wish to be proactive and fix problems before they become serious, but you have not indicated how the A&H console is not meeting your needs.

If the A&H meets all of your current needs, replacing it would only make sense if you were undergoing changes that would require its replacement in the near future, like you need more channel inputs on a weekly basis.

The Verona might sound a little nicer, but it will not be an order of magnitude better sounding. Sonically, 95% of the congregation will be unable to tell if you replaced your console with an XL4.

I would recommend studying your situation, and discussing the growing needs of your music ministers, and then develop a plan which addresses those needs. Even if it is a "use it or lose it" scenario, I would not recommend getting rid of a perfectly good console when there is no apparent need for additional quality.

If you need some salesman-speak for your pastor, the Midas website will have plenty of buzzwords. If there are not enough buzzwords there you can go to the Mackie site and borrow a few from them.

Please update us on what unmet requirements your church has of its sound system, and we may be able to come up with some useful recommendations.

Regards,

Dan Timon

[andrew gissing]

I'll second Dan and other's advice - frome someone who uses a 3300 for chuch and just bought a verona for personal PA system.

Yes, verona is way nicer. Yes, it's going to be hard for me to keep using 3300 at church when I know what's tucked away in my truck...but, unless our church wins the lottery I would not want to spend that kind of money on a new board when our existing one meets our needs.

Quality and number of channels aside (ie, if you need more then there is a valid reason), they are basically the same - 8aux, 8group, mute groups, 2 vs 4 matrix...


andrew

[yam4000vca Jim Gould]

I am going to chime in with Dan on this but maybe take a bit different path to relate it to you.
The thing Dan said about very few people listening being able to tell a difference is 100% true.
If their are not channel concerns or the A&H is not working well then maybe you can justify a new board. If there are not I can not see the point.
If you are in a reverberant room the subtle differences would be further masked.
I can get a job done with an A&H but it is my least favorite of what would be considered a pro console. Does not mean I could not get about any act their is done on one,I would have to work harder at it though.
What you may be able to do is rent one for a few services and see if you really think it is worth it.
In my younger days I spent many dollars on the latest and greatest thing. So much when I think back, from a business standpoint, I question my common sense at the time. The scene was healthy and I could afford to do it and I did.
Many times the new tool I purchased made little difference to the big picture but I did it anyway. I had sort of the motor head syndrome as in how fast could I go in an audio sense.
Now some things will make a difference as when I replaced a Tascam Model 10 and a Model5 with a Soundcraft. That was night and day. I could actually drive the signal down the snake with out the help of a line driver. That is not the case here.
My advice.  If you have the money buy the VDrum. More people will notice an improvement and you will too. The Verona is a nice mixer though.

[gainreduction]

So what we're all saying is this:  If you've been using a 58 forever on vocals, and it works just fine, there is no need to upgrade?  Seriously, aren't we all gearheads in here?  I changed out (most of) my 58's for other mics a long time ago and it significantly improved vocal clarity, tonality, rejection, etc. etc.  (I may not want to hammer nails with 'em though)

Same with the GL.  It works fine sure, but I'd love to make it my monitor board or something and free up my auxes for FX.  Just because 95% of people in the world have no idea what sounds good doesn't mean that Third Day is gonna mix on a Mackie..  They want the best to give the best.  

Everyone else in the world wants to stay on top of what's happening, with what the latest is; but it seems like because we're in the church, we're supposed to just 'make due' or something.  Why is that?

[yam4000vca Jim Gould]

I will answer the questions you asked and I can see your point to a degree.
I can not speak for others but I think a lot of people here are not gear heads,myself too,in the pure senese of the term.
When I was younger I was more of a gear head as I described in my previous post. Now the gear is merely a tool or a means to an end. I feel I am better off than when I spent more time and resources investing time and money into having the latest thing. The money I paid for some technology over the years would make you sick to what you can get today.
A lot of people at very high levels use a 58. It is not that there is not better but we know what it is and what to expect. In a church only as you seem to be you can look at it a bit differently because you are not crawling out of a vehicle after severl hours of travel and trying to figure out how to make this latest and greatest mic work for you.
I am not sure of exactly what your music ministry is like but I can tell you that in a room like you describe I could probably never need any more than 3 effects and could find other ways to creatively get signal into them if I was low on auxs. If you get the VDrum they can process themselves.
I do not think a church should have to make do. It is a choice that is made like in every other aspect of society. Some churches would do fine with a Shure Vocal Master and an other may use several arrays of the latest line array.
It is a matter of what it takes to do the job and the willingness of the congregation to finance it.
Some churches I have done installs in I have been in competition with the window folks as some people want more stained glass or some want a more costly organ more than they want a better sound system.
It takes all kinds and there is not a 100% correct answer any one could give you.

[Mike Sveda]

Yes, we have a Verona 560. It is a nice console, not the best in the world, but nice.

Here is why we upgraded to a Verona:

1. TAC Scorpion 2 was 14 years old.
2. TAC only had 36 XLR inputs
3. TAC had awful concentric aux sends (very bad)
4. We are doing concerts each week with national artists and needed more inputs and rider friendly console. (Plus One, Jeremy Camp, Tree63, etc.)
5.  We chose non-VCA since some BE's would not know how to use them for the smaller acts that come in.
6.  The built in power supplies don't take rack space.
7.  Low profile and easy to use.

Quote:

The sky is brighter, and the birds sing prettier!

[Dave Mallon]

Another thing to think of if people of different skill levels are mixing is "With the level of expertese we have, is this console actually going to make any real difference, or is it just a new toy?"

We have a GL3300.  It does the job & sounds fine.  

I took over the system and am modifying it slowly as pieces die or just sound bad.  

Previously we would have bought Behringer, but I'm replacing with nicer and better, but I think it's a balancing act between Quality & value.

I would love a Soundcraft or a Midas, a rack of drawmer comps & gates and avalon pre amps, but don't think that it would make ENOUGH of a difference to justify the expenditure.

But maybe that's just me.

I mean, we're still on 58s, and will be for a while (they were replaced shortly before I was around)although we do have a few Beta 57s...

Just my thoughts.

Dave Mallon

[Dan Timon]

gainreduction wrote on Tue, 07 September 2004 00:47

So what we're all saying is this:  If you've been using a 58 forever on vocals, and it works just fine, there is no need to upgrade?  Seriously, aren't we all gearheads in here?  I changed out my 58's for other mics a long time ago and it significantly improved vocal clarity, tonality, rejection, etc. etc.  (I may not want to hammer nails with 'em though) Same with the GL.  It works fine sure, but I'd love to make it my monitor board or something and free up my auxes for FX.  Just because 95% of people in the world have no idea what sounds good doesn't mean that Third Day is gonna mix on a Mackie..  They want the best to give the best.   Everyone else in the world wants to stay on top of what's happening, with what the latest is; but it seems like because we're in the church, we're supposed to just 'make due' or something.  Why is that?

Nobody said that you have to have second best because you are a church. With the minimal advice you supplied, I would have made similar recommendations to a bar owner (other than the verbage about small groups and ministry ). And for the sake of perspective, I mix monitors on a church PA system, where I drive a H3k and have 30 channels of Drawmer dynamics at my disposal.

If your church needs a monitor board, I would recommend a proper monitor board instead of a GL, simply because you will very quickly need more mixes than a GL can supply. When our church upgraded from the 4-mixes-from-FOH world, we bought an SM12, and were quickly limited by the 14 mixes we could patch together from it. If your inevitable campaign to get more people on IEMs is successful, you will quickly develop a need for stereo mixes for them.

If, on the other hand you have a rapidly growing youth ministry, with seperate services and no appropriate PA, it would be an excellent way to properly use the GL, and the argument could be made for a Verona at FOH.

Regarding your supporting arguments: (1)I would never want a mic locker that had no 58s in it, but I would want some other choices for vocals in addition to them. (2) It is hard to predict what a national artist wants. We have had a few come around that preferred their 01v96 to our H3k at FOH. The BE sometimes just wants to be comfortable.

Regards,

Dan Timon

[andrew gissing]

I think the point about making do, 58's and Third Day and so.. for me comes down to how much can you spend at once.

It's pretty easy to replace 58's a few at a time - but changing console might require finance.

In our circumstances, this week I had to advise church that we needed a new wireless mic (we've got another building that one is needed for) and the best plan of attack was to rotate mics and get the new one for our main place of worship.

However, our choices came down to a 58 or 87c transmitter (we already have a spare receiver) - and for a $500AU difference, I explained that in our current auditorium (world's worst acoustics) nobody will tell the difference, but in the new place we're building, people will.

So that's not a case of saying go cheap every time. The thing that's very concious in my mind is that the money we spend on things audio - that's money that came out of people's pockets - not customers but congregation and for that reason alone, we've got more responsibility to spend wisely.

For my PA business, I can justify to my wife that going for a verona over the venice was a way better choice and will lead to more money coming in the door. That kind of logic mostly won't apply in churchs. Obviously bad sound will put people off coming, and really fantastic sound might be a drawcard - but only a might.

andrew

[chasetower]

Hey Mike S.
I hope you do realize that you use VCA's the same you do use groups. They have differnet functions and such but how you use them is exactly the same. I use Veronas and I use H3000's and PM4000's, its exactly the same. Groups have outputs VCA's don't.
I'm sure you have "researched" this subject. But that is a poor reason why to pick a non-vca desk. Anyways thats my 2 bits.

Chase

[Mike Sveda]

I am just saying that some BE's that come in couldn't assign a VCA group if their life depended on it.......

At the price point we were looking at the only VCA desks would have been the A&H ML3000 and Yamaha M3000A.

[Dave San Souci]

We just installed a Verona 480 in our new auditorium . It's just wonderful big improvement  from the Yamaha we were using. For the money it's hard to beat nice Eq 's and Mic pre's very musical. Like you would expect from Midas.I look at several consoles before picking the Verona a digital console was out of the question we weren't going to pay 50k or more for one. Can I say something that will justify your church buying one know. If your AH is working and doing the job then keep it. New toy's are nice but not always necessary. In my case the Yamaha was beat channels were going bad and I was tired of fixing it. We have had it for 12 years it was just time for a new. There was many times I went to my pastor to lobby for a new console in the pass and was turn down. It was worth the wait in my opinion.


Dave

[Mike Sveda]

Quote:

the sky will be brighter, and the birds will sing prettier

The sky is still bright and the birds still sing very pretty!!!

[chasetower]

Mike S
Why can't you show the BE's how to assign the VCA's. If you were a "true" technician you would be right there beside the BE showing him how to use the desk. At least thats what I would do as a systems technician......thats what i do(my profession). I own alot of desks and know how to use them and I am open to show any BE how to use the desk no matter what level he is at.

Chase

[yam4000vca Jim Gould]

I agree that it is no harder to assign a VCA than a subgroup.
If the person to mix does not have experience with VCAs and they want to use them I think it is a very simple thing to show them.
Now if you purchased a mixer for other reasons that is fine but because somebody does not know how to assign it then they probably do not have a handle on sub groups either.
To me it is easier to explain a VCA on a stereo system than using subgroups as long as you do not have to insert on the subs.
I can not think of one higher level show that I have done that I had the need for inserting across a subgroup. The only time I ever do it is when running smaller systems doing monitors from foh. I usually insert a comp and an eq because once I get the monitors set I do not want to adjust on the channel changing the monitors.

[Stuie]

Hi Steve

I have driven the GLs and love them for there ability to do everything under the sun. But i only driven the veronas and smaller midas desk and found the pre amps to be much nicer and the equing to be little kinder. The pre amps where the big difference and a simple 58 sound better than before.

Is a sound company willing to A/B the different desks in your church? it would be much better in a sales pitch if you can convince them with a in house situation.

Personally the midas is a excellent FOH desk but not good in using it as FOH and Foldback desk. Navigation will take about 5minutes to get used to and you should by some sunglasses thoese midas boys love colour, Just buy a manditory hawaian t shirt and some sunnies and you fit right in.

Cheers
Stuie

PS No i dont wear Hawaian t shirts

[Alan Hamilton]

gainreduction wrote on Tue, 07 September 2004 03:38

Greetings Audio People,  I'm the sound team director for my church and we're currently mixing on the A&H GL3300.  I love it and have used it (or its brother and sister A&H models) for years.  We're running a great system with Renkus Heinz CT tops flown and EAW subs in a large wharehouse setting.  We are truly blessed and God is growing us quickly! Any thoughts or comments are appreciated! In Him, Steve Johnson Miami, FL

You have a GL3300 now and I'll assume it is operating to spec...
Do you have issues with feedback (either squeals, rumbles, or both?
Do vocals sound 'nasaly' or the exact opposite- 'boomy'?
Does the system seem to lack 'power' (no oomph)?
Does the system sound 'muddy'?
Do you have problems with the mons (people on stage complaining... levels changing?)?

If so... then you're going to have the same problems with the Midas. That stuff is not the product of the soundboard.

There's no reason to get the Midas if the only reason is to 'get a Midas'. At least 99% of the congregation will not notice a difference and if the operators are having problems now then 100% of the congregation will not notice a difference.

You first need to have a reason for a new board (needing more channels for example) and THEN you can start comparing consoles and considering the Midas. Honestly, while it does say Midas on it you might find that same money will get you more bang for the buck in another brand of console.

I will disagree with Mike S a bit... in a church setting I don't think having a Verona is going to matter that much to riders. It's better than having a Mackie CFX of course... but I don't know that it would be any more acceptable than a Soundcraft Series Two or a K2... or even a GL3300. The only question is: Of the acts that hafta hafta hafta have a VCA console (and I would argue that in a church settings there will be scant few that are that picky) how many will find the Verona acceptable because it is a Midas even tho it doesn't have VCA's? So if riders truly are an issue one of the VCA boards might make more sense (MH3-MH4, ML4K... on the lower end of the $$$). And if riders aren't a big issue then you should spend wisely. And if you don't need a new board right now for channels or features then I say do something more worthwhile with the money (feed some kids and their families on Thanksgiving for example and get them some gifts for Christmas).

-AlanH

[Mike Sveda]

Again at the price point we were at the only competitors were:

A&H Ml3000, A&H Gl4000, Soundcraft K2, and Yamaha M3000A.  

For our applications the Midas provided the best value in sound and capability. Another church here in town replaced a GL3300 with a Verona 480 after the GL3300 had a failure.  

[ProSoundWeb Community]