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[gainreduction]

Greetings Audio People,

 I'm the sound team director for my church and we're currently mixing on the A&H GL3300.  I love it and have used it (or its brother and sister A&H models) for years.  We're running a great system with Renkus Heinz CT tops flown and EAW subs in a large wharehouse setting.  We are truly blessed and God is growing us quickly!

 I've been looking over the Verona for a while now and really want to hear from someone that's using one in a church environment.  What kind of improvements could we expect if we were to get into one of these?  I know, I know, EVERYTHING would sound different, but what specifically could I use to present it to my pastor in a way that would help me justify selling what we have and upgrading?  I've never mixed on a Midas, but I've listened to them at many concerts, know their reputation and with this new desk coming out at a somewhat realistic price point, I really want to take our sound to the next level.

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated!

In Him,
Steve Johnson
Miami, FL

[sounddude1]

Soon, you will get glowing reports from Mike S. His church got one. If you get one, the sky will be brighter, and the birds will sing prettier. It says Midas on it. That is all that matters. I am sure your congregation will be much better served by replacing that cheap A&H with something that costs a LOT more. Why do you think you need a new board? What does the GL lack that you think the MIDAS will fix? Can you justify the expenditure? Are there other areas that could use the money, or is a shiny new MIDAS your ONLY need?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a nice tool. But if you already have a car that gets you there, and your roof leaks, maybe you don't need a more expen$ive car.

[gainreduction]

Dude, have you been talking to my wife??

scary.

I hear you, I'm sure there are other needs in the church, but holes in the roof are not on the list (Thank God).  We're doin' okay, I just wanted to hear from anyone that's driving one and how they like it.  

My biggest need is to have King Kong behind the drumset play with straws instead of the logs he uses, but hey, V-Drums are another topic.

[Karl P(eterson)]

I doubt he has been talking to your wife, but he may have just been having a rough day.

In any case, there is some truth in what he says, if there isn't any problems (lack of current channels, lack of enough aux's, lack of reliability in your current console, lack of _____) then there is no reason to replace it.

If, on the other hand, as I suspect, you are starting to run up against one or more of those walls, then it may be time to look at another board, although don't single out midas as the only player. While there board is nice (I have used there verona and other boards of there up to there Heritage 4k) they are far from the only "top end player". Audio Toys, Cadac, Yamaha, Soundcraft, Digico and Innovason are but a few of the top shelf console makers.

In fact, if you were to be considering a new console, I would highly recommend you take a sideroute and look into a soundcraft MH3 or maybe even a digital PM5D or Innovason sy40.

So, don't buy it just because you want it, thats a waste of resources, but if you need it, and the rest of your system is up to snuf, well then, start exploring!

Karl P

[Dan Timon]

I am not quite sure where to start. I would guess from your job title that you are responsible for the overall budgeting and staffing of the sound team, and possibly are a team leader or small group leader for your technical ministry. It is good that you wish to be proactive and fix problems before they become serious, but you have not indicated how the A&H console is not meeting your needs.

If the A&H meets all of your current needs, replacing it would only make sense if you were undergoing changes that would require its replacement in the near future, like you need more channel inputs on a weekly basis.

The Verona might sound a little nicer, but it will not be an order of magnitude better sounding. Sonically, 95% of the congregation will be unable to tell if you replaced your console with an XL4.

I would recommend studying your situation, and discussing the growing needs of your music ministers, and then develop a plan which addresses those needs. Even if it is a "use it or lose it" scenario, I would not recommend getting rid of a perfectly good console when there is no apparent need for additional quality.

If you need some salesman-speak for your pastor, the Midas website will have plenty of buzzwords. If there are not enough buzzwords there you can go to the Mackie site and borrow a few from them.

Please update us on what unmet requirements your church has of its sound system, and we may be able to come up with some useful recommendations.

Regards,

Dan Timon

[andrew gissing]

I'll second Dan and other's advice - frome someone who uses a 3300 for chuch and just bought a verona for personal PA system.

Yes, verona is way nicer. Yes, it's going to be hard for me to keep using 3300 at church when I know what's tucked away in my truck...but, unless our church wins the lottery I would not want to spend that kind of money on a new board when our existing one meets our needs.

Quality and number of channels aside (ie, if you need more then there is a valid reason), they are basically the same - 8aux, 8group, mute groups, 2 vs 4 matrix...


andrew

[yam4000vca Jim Gould]

I am going to chime in with Dan on this but maybe take a bit different path to relate it to you.
The thing Dan said about very few people listening being able to tell a difference is 100% true.
If their are not channel concerns or the A&H is not working well then maybe you can justify a new board. If there are not I can not see the point.
If you are in a reverberant room the subtle differences would be further masked.
I can get a job done with an A&H but it is my least favorite of what would be considered a pro console. Does not mean I could not get about any act their is done on one,I would have to work harder at it though.
What you may be able to do is rent one for a few services and see if you really think it is worth it.
In my younger days I spent many dollars on the latest and greatest thing. So much when I think back, from a business standpoint, I question my common sense at the time. The scene was healthy and I could afford to do it and I did.
Many times the new tool I purchased made little difference to the big picture but I did it anyway. I had sort of the motor head syndrome as in how fast could I go in an audio sense.
Now some things will make a difference as when I replaced a Tascam Model 10 and a Model5 with a Soundcraft. That was night and day. I could actually drive the signal down the snake with out the help of a line driver. That is not the case here.
My advice.  If you have the money buy the VDrum. More people will notice an improvement and you will too. The Verona is a nice mixer though.

[gainreduction]

So what we're all saying is this:  If you've been using a 58 forever on vocals, and it works just fine, there is no need to upgrade?  Seriously, aren't we all gearheads in here?  I changed out (most of) my 58's for other mics a long time ago and it significantly improved vocal clarity, tonality, rejection, etc. etc.  (I may not want to hammer nails with 'em though)

Same with the GL.  It works fine sure, but I'd love to make it my monitor board or something and free up my auxes for FX.  Just because 95% of people in the world have no idea what sounds good doesn't mean that Third Day is gonna mix on a Mackie..  They want the best to give the best.  

Everyone else in the world wants to stay on top of what's happening, with what the latest is; but it seems like because we're in the church, we're supposed to just 'make due' or something.  Why is that?

[yam4000vca Jim Gould]

I will answer the questions you asked and I can see your point to a degree.
I can not speak for others but I think a lot of people here are not gear heads,myself too,in the pure senese of the term.
When I was younger I was more of a gear head as I described in my previous post. Now the gear is merely a tool or a means to an end. I feel I am better off than when I spent more time and resources investing time and money into having the latest thing. The money I paid for some technology over the years would make you sick to what you can get today.
A lot of people at very high levels use a 58. It is not that there is not better but we know what it is and what to expect. In a church only as you seem to be you can look at it a bit differently because you are not crawling out of a vehicle after severl hours of travel and trying to figure out how to make this latest and greatest mic work for you.
I am not sure of exactly what your music ministry is like but I can tell you that in a room like you describe I could probably never need any more than 3 effects and could find other ways to creatively get signal into them if I was low on auxs. If you get the VDrum they can process themselves.
I do not think a church should have to make do. It is a choice that is made like in every other aspect of society. Some churches would do fine with a Shure Vocal Master and an other may use several arrays of the latest line array.
It is a matter of what it takes to do the job and the willingness of the congregation to finance it.
Some churches I have done installs in I have been in competition with the window folks as some people want more stained glass or some want a more costly organ more than they want a better sound system.
It takes all kinds and there is not a 100% correct answer any one could give you.

[Mike Sveda]

Yes, we have a Verona 560. It is a nice console, not the best in the world, but nice.

Here is why we upgraded to a Verona:

1. TAC Scorpion 2 was 14 years old.
2. TAC only had 36 XLR inputs
3. TAC had awful concentric aux sends (very bad)
4. We are doing concerts each week with national artists and needed more inputs and rider friendly console. (Plus One, Jeremy Camp, Tree63, etc.)
5.  We chose non-VCA since some BE's would not know how to use them for the smaller acts that come in.
6.  The built in power supplies don't take rack space.
7.  Low profile and easy to use.

Quote:

The sky is brighter, and the birds sing prettier!

[ProSoundWeb Community]