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Author Topic: DANLEY Sound Labs TH-115?  (Read 60242 times)

Tom Danley

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Re: Karlson Coupler
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2005, 10:48:20 pm »

Hi Iain

I remember the “Tubes” but never understood how they worked.
Phil Pope’s post above had a link,  at that site I found some pictures of the tubes and Karlson coupler, called a Khybo or something here.
Like the tube, the karlson coupler is an intriguing arrangement.  One can find configurations of radio antenna’s that remind one of the Karlson, yet acoustically, my gut reaction is that he was on to something but not quite all the way there.  
I had fully shelved the concept mentally until the last few years when a DIY’r named Freddyi kept posting links and photo’s and occasional measurements of them.
Now its in the “more of an unknown quantity” box for me, but like an antenna, I am sure the acoustical geometry / sizes are the key to making one truly broad band if that is possible.

Iain, I don’t know if you did Ted’s sound in the USA a bit earlier but in 1972 or1973,  I was a bass player in a band that warmed up for Ted N. concert.  
It was kind of funny, maybe that’s not exactly the right word.
I worked at a small speaker company called Steamer Sound at the time, for the gig, I borrowed every working speaker we had and the PA system we had on hand.
Anyway with all the boxes, we were able to fill the stage edge to edge with   4X12 Steamer boxes 2 high and we had an “out door” sized PA on the sides (2X12 80Hz horns and a number of big Altec multi-cells and 511’s. That was powered (mostly) with home built 200W Tube amplifiers based on the Sunn 2000S (and dynaco) output stage.
It was great fun and a great gig for the band, the best part was a standing ovation.  The next best part was Ted’s brother (I think it was) asked if they could use our PA, for me, that was just as cool as the ovation.
Pretty funny, it took every person we could get with Van’s and station Wagons to haul all the stuff,
“AAHHH,  we hit the big time”.  

Well, I still build speakers anyway.

Here are some of those Tubes and such

http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/soundl12.jpg

http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/soundl3.jpg

http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/soundl4.jpg

Nostalgia lamp off, its getting too smoky in here.
Best regards,

Tom Danley

Danley Sound Labs
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Iain_Macdonald

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Re: Karlson Coupler
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2005, 02:58:31 pm »

Trevor,

I seem to remember that the system was sold to people who had a connection with Paul Weller post Jam. Supposedly they changed the tubes for regular horns. I do remember Bill showing me Quads on the HF. (I didn't work for them, just introduced by friends. "Hey Iain went to college, and he knows how to use a scope. Oh, better meet Bill then") The system was reviewed in a number of magazines.

Iain.
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Iain_Macdonald

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Re: Karlson Coupler
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2005, 03:43:33 pm »

Tom,

The Tube seems to me, to simply be, a 'broadband' resonating tube with a variable termination. Have a look at the Patent documents they give some insight to his thinking.

No thanks. I didn't do sound for Ted. At that time I was still going to college. Even then I wanted to preserve my hearing. It was stupidly loud. Like enough to cause your eardrum to flutter. His FOH was a crazy American, who publicly claimed, that he could kill the audience by moving a few faders. Ho Hum.. Communication was reputed to be, by line of sight.


Iain
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Freddy Ireson

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Re: DANLEY Sound Labs TH-115?
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2005, 07:56:01 pm »

Hi guys

here's a bit of rough diy K-stuff - will have to gather up links to plots and gather data on Transylvania's Tube when weather permits.

does anyone here have info on K-stuff not seen at Ulfman's? - or diy Karlson coupler data to share?

a few K-tubes - LOL

http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/tw.jpg

a long/meadering post on a crude/small bass coupler with added air-mass cavity on its front chamber - warning - a lot of data to load if on dialup:

http://130.89.239.148/kforum/read.php?f=1&i=6473&t=6 473

a 1" ID x 5.5" (sans stub) diy pvc tube with ~0.1" initial gap and half ellipse form vs a modified X15 pipe (just "on-axis" meaning 30 degrees nominal tilt and also a perpendicular plot)

http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/9v7.jpg  

Best,
Freddy

ps - thanks to Tom Danley for pointing out this thread

Karlson's list of inventions 1950 - note "controlled reverb" aspect of the coupler. -believe it occurs in tubes also.

LIST OF INVENTIONS 4/24/50

J.E. (Edward) Karlson

1. ELECTRONIC POTENTIOMETER. A variable element which is capable of linear variations of resistances with infinitesimal mechanical motion yet also have capabilities of broad variations in resistance.
2. CAPLESS DISPENSING TUBE. This device permits the use of toothpaste tubes, etc. without the necessity and bother of removing and replacing the cap after each usage.
3. GEOLOGICAL PROSPECTING SYSTEM. A system for use in the prospecting for oil, minerals, etc. This system may also be used for radar applications.
4. RADAR ANTENNA WITH AUTOMATICALLY VARIABLE BEAM PATTERN. This invention provides a simple means of automatically changing the beam pattern of a radar antenna from a pencil beam to a cosecant beam.
5. DIELECTRIC ANTENNA. This invention provides a technique for designing commercial and military antennas which will have overall dimensions than conventional antennae, and yet have equivalent gain and directivity characteristics.
6. BRUSHLESS DC MOTOR
7. ASHTRAY. An extremely simple design for an ash tray which quickly extinguishes cigarettes.
8. PRECISION DELAY CIRCUIT. This circuit provides a delayed pulse at a precise interval following an initial pulse.
9. CHATTERLESS CONTACTS FOR RELAYS
10. TELEVISION ANTENNA. This invention provides a simple, low cost antenna which can be readily hidden or obscured in the average room and is suitable for both F.M. and television.
11. SLOT ANTENNA. This design provides a slot antenna with broad band matching possibilities.
12. HYBRID WAVEGUIDE JUNCTION. This is a wave guide section which has variable propagation characteristics dependant upon the direction of propagation.
13. R.F. TUNER. a simplified tuner for F.M. and television use.
14. ADVERTISING SIGN. Novel electric sigh with quick change possibilities.
15. LIGHT VALVE FOR TELEVISION PROJECTION AND PICKUP TUBE.
16. ACOUSTIC TRANSDUCER. A novel loudspeaker enclosure with improved matching characteristics and controlled reverberation.
17. FISHING DEVICE
18. TELEPHONE AMPLIFIER WITH SPECIAL ACOUSTIC CHARACTERISTICS

Karlson patents

KARLSON PATENTS:

J.E. Karlson US 2586827 “Directive Radiating System” Filed March 31 1945

J.E. Karlson “Acoustic Transducers” US 2816619 filed Dec. 1951, granted 6 years later - probably due to RCA/Olson filing one - Karlson won.

J.E Karlson “Acoustic System” US 2896736 filed Aug. 1955 (reflective system to go with new "Karlsonette")

J.E. Karlson “Open End Waveguide Antenna” US 3445852 filed 1968 - essentially analogous with the K-tube waveguide used in Karlson’s X15 2-way speaker ~1966.

J.E. Karlson “Acoustic Transducers” - US 3540544 filed 1968 - concurrent with X15 and described Karlson’s use of ellipse based reflectors.

J.E. Karlson “Jet Engine Silencer Nozzle...) US 3543876 filed 1968 - jet engine muffler and rocket nozzles.  

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Phil Pope

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Karlson
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2005, 09:06:56 am »

Freddy

thanks for the interesting post.  Like the look of those clams in particular.  Can clearly see the 1/4 wavelength peak associated with the full chamber length.  Am I right in thinking that Reams' Karlson-Hypex is essentially a clam  chamber loading a variable expansion horn?

Phil
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Freddy Ireson

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Re: Karlson
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2005, 10:56:49 am »

Hi Phil - re: klam 18 made from one 4x8' sheet - not sure about 1/4 wave or BP peaking (?) - front is about 24" deep from nose to baffle - also there's a matter of microphone perspective vs its aperture affecting plots.

http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/SK.jpg

subjectively in a modest size room, theres large changes in sound with small changes in aperture flare and/or gap. -- don't get much building done and lack math ability to digest some forumla but there's some K-guys who run 4-5 sets of CNC-ed wings and many variables per coupler.

Here's some impedance data on that klam before adding 0.6lb/cu.ft. polyfill to its ~85l chamber which lowered qtc to around 0.84 or so.

http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/KFC

plugging the 2nd Z peak into winisd as BP4 front chamber tuning superfically looks similar.

re:Reams Hypex - IIRC path is about 2ft max so "path" shorter than La Scala.  Reams plots in the AES paper looked pretty strong. IIRC, rear chamber for each D140 was around 3 cu.ft. (apologies for mixing metric - lol)

Freddy
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Iain_Macdonald

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Re: Karlson
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2005, 03:44:50 pm »

Freddy & Tom,

I was wondering whether the Khyboe could be modeled as a Voight Rubber Throat.

Iain.
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Freddy Ireson

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Re: Karlson
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2005, 04:40:10 pm »

hi Iain  - one might look at Poppe's paper. discussion with a k-builder suggested making an impedance measuring tube (with 2 mic method rather than traveling wave type) to mount in place of a Karlson's driver.

K-Coupler paper

http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/files/poppe_kcoupler.pdf

btw "the original" Karlson was the fifteen inch model introduced at Hotel New Yorker Audio Fair in fall of 1952 and its introduction went along with an Audio Engineering Magazine article. (which can be found at Job Ulfman's Karlson site)

Here's the fifteen inch Karlson plan as appeared in January 1954 issue of Radio & Televsion News

http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/K15.PNG

the first Karlson 12 appeared in 1955 and sported reversible port panel for presence-control plus a movable wood bar mounted to the rear panel(three positions) adjacent to its rear lowpass shelf as
a damping control.  I have the factory 1955 blueprint and one exmaple. This Karlsonette could also be laid on its back to fire into a wall for "Aural Optics" and an optional spaced glass top available so it could be a bar! - this size coupler will kick some snappy midbass with lower Q woofer.

Karlsonette as bar http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/BAR.jpg

btw "Leech" KHYBOE shown at Ulfman's pages appeared to be ~X15 size and not K15 size - although Walter Zintz mentioned a "shelf" (perhaps menat rear lowpass filer gap?)

at some point in time Acoustic Control introduced a couple of KHYBOE 115BK and BC2 - I have the 115BK

who was involved in this "collaboration"?  - did the late Dan Armstrong have intentions of reviving some K-stuff?

front view of Acoustic 115bk
http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/ACAP.jpg

link to one of my posts on 115BK

  http://130.89.239.148/kforum/read.php?f=1&i=5739&t=5 739#reply_5739

btw - here's part of Ernst Beck's loudspeaker pages - looks like he was using Transylvania Tube in early 1980's:

http://www.biokurs.de/speaker.htm



Freddy

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Iain_Macdonald

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Re: Karlson
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2005, 06:32:21 pm »

Freddy,

I think that the Khyboe and the Tube are different in their treatment. To start with, the K tube can be considered as a resonating pipe. Then you can expand the complexity of analysis, like Poppe.  

The Khyboe (Bass) is different. The front of the driver has a short loading section with rapid flare. The rear also loads in to the front flare. Maybe I'm wrong, but looking at the picture links, I don't see that you or others, use the rear radiation of the driver, either by rear horn section, rear pipe or reflex loading. Why? You are missing 50% plus of the design concept and significant output.

Iain.

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Freddy Ireson

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Re: Karlson
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2005, 10:16:16 pm »

Hi Iain - my Karlson are usually vented  - sometimes with side gapped vents in the reflector which can't be seen directly from frontal view.

have 7 K15 enclosures (two definitely factory - two more in blonde formica "perhaps" - but no logos/decal(?) and a few old rough K15 copies accumulated plus 2 original X15, one original Karlsonette k12 from 1955 and one Acoustic Control 115BK (KHYBOE - I beleive - waht do you say?)

here's the Acoustic Control 115 BK from the Collaboration Series
(who collaborated??)

http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/115BK.jpg

here's about the way the 115BK looks internally (this drawing was from a diy copy) - mine has a 20 degree baffle tilt, dimnsions IIRC of 27"H x 15"D x 20.5" W

http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/ws.jpg

Best Wishes,
Freddy
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